711.94/24064/11
Memorandum of a Conversation
The Japanese Ambassador called at his request at the Secretary’s apartment.29 He said first of all he wished to express his appreciation of the action of this Government in regard to the matter of the visit to the United States of three requisitioned Japanese ships.
The Ambassador then went on to say that he had communicated to his Government our statement of October 2. He said that while he thoroughly understood the position of this Government he had been instructed three times during the last few days to obtain from the Secretary an expression of the Secretary’s views in regard to the points on which there remains a divergence of view between our two Governments. He was, therefore, making this inquiry at the express and repeated instruction of his Government. The Ambassador said that he understood there were three points of divergence, namely: the question of the relation of the two countries to the European war; the question of the stationing of Japanese troops in certain areas of China; and the question of application of the principle of non-discrimination to the entire Pacific area.
The Secretary pointed out that during our conversations up to the time that the conversations were interrupted by Japan’s action in Indochina, we had been talking about an understanding in regard to a peaceful settlement covering the entire Pacific area; that he felt that only on the basis of a broad-gauge program of universal application could we expect to establish peace and stability in the Pacific area; that the Japanese Prime Minister, in his statement to the President, had indicated that he subscribed to the principles upon [Page 671] which our conversations have been based; and that then came the Japanese proposals which appeared to us to narrow down the application of these principles. For example, the Secretary noted that we had talked about the application to the entire Pacific area of the principle of non-discrimination in international commercial relations, whereas the Japanese proposal seemed to call for narrowing it down to the southwest Pacific area, and that it was not clear what the Japanese meant when they suggested some limitation of the principle of non-discrimination on account of Japan’s relations of propinquity to China. The Secretary then went on to say that he would be glad to have Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Ballantine see the Japanese Ambassador in an endeavor to see whether any points in our respective documents could be further clarified and shades of meaning brought out. The Secretary added that Mr. Hamilton and Mr. Ballantine would then report to the Secretary thereon.
Mr. Ballantine said to the Japanese Ambassador that we would be glad to be at his disposal at his convenience. (A little later on the Japanese Ambassador asked Mr. Ballantine whether we could come right away and Mr. Ballantine suggested that it might be better to wait until this afternoon. That seemed agreeable to the Japanese Ambassador, and Mr. Obata said to Mr. Ballantine, “Then we will get in touch with each other later.”)
The Ambassador said that the Japanese Prime Minister had told Ambassador Grew that the Prime Minister personally subscribed in principle to the four principles to which the Secretary had referred. The Ambassador said, with regard to the question of stationing troops in certain areas of China, that this presented to the Japanese Government a very difficult question; that chaotic conditions might be expected to prevail in China following the withdrawal of Japanese troops and a serious question would be presented by the lack of adequate protection for Japanese commercial enterprise in China. The Ambassador added that at the present time there were conflicting groups within China with the Kuomintang on one side and the Communists on another and that the only thing that was holding the Chinese together was a common desire to resist Japan.
The Secretary asked the Ambassador whether he thought the Chinese Government would agree to such a proposal as that of stationing Japanese troops in China. The Ambassador made no definite reply and the Secretary went on to ask whether the Ambassador did not think it possible that there were sufficient number of trained Chinese troops who could be counted upon to maintain order in China. The Secretary pointed out that according to the experience of this country we had found maintenance of troops in Latin American countries only aroused ill will and perpetuated a situation of instability. [Page 672] For this reason he felt that, even though some losses and sacrifices might have to be faced at the outset, in the long run the gains would justify them. The Secretary referred to the situation in the South after the Civil War when northern troops were stationed in southern states and to the bitter resentment aroused in the South by the presence of these troops. The Ambassador indicated his personal belief in the soundness of what the Secretary said.
The Ambassador then said that what he wished now to say to the Secretary was not as coming from the Japanese Ambassador but as expressing in confidence his own personal views. He said that he had talked with a great many people in this country and all of them, including Republican leaders, agreed as to the complete integrity of the Secretary. The Secretary said that he hoped that the Ambassador would feel free to say anything that he might wish to say and that the Secretary, for his part, had always felt that he could talk in complete confidence and with frankness to the Ambassador. The Ambassador then said that Japan was now at the crossroads and the Japanese Government was in a very difficult position. He remarked that it was quite true that 99 per cent of the Japanese people did not want trouble with the United States but that they were a disciplined people and would fight if commanded to do so. The Ambassador said that there were agitators in Japan who were trying to cause trouble in our relations and they were probably being assisted with funds from other countries. The Ambassador then pointed out that war between the United States and Japan, whatever might be the final outcome, would be a very serious undertaking, as undoubtedly the President, from his long experience in the Navy Department, fully realized. The Ambassador, therefore, felt that both from the point of view of Japan and of the United States everything possible should be done by both sides to avert the possibility of a conflict between the two countries. The Secretary thanked the Ambassador for having expressed his views freely.
- Mr. Obata accompanied the Ambassador.↩