Paris Peace Conf. 180.03501/114
HD–114
Notes of a Meeting of the Heads of Delegations of the Five Great Powers, Held at M. Pichon’s Room, Saturday, December 20, 1919, at 3 p.m.
- Present
- America, United States of
- Hon. Hugh Wallace
- Secretariat
- Mr. L. Harrison
- British Empire
- Sir Eyre Crowe
- Secretariat
- Mr. H. Norman
- France
- M. Clemenceau
- Secretariat
- M. Dutasta
- M. Berthelot
- M. de Saint Quentin
- Italy
- M. de Martino
- Secretariat
- M. Trombetti
- Japan
- M. Matsui
- Secretariat
- M. Kawai
- America, United States of
| Joint Secretariat | |
| America, United States of | Capt. B. Winthrop |
| British Empire | Capt. Lothian Small |
| France | M. Massigli |
| Italy | M. Zanchi |
| Interpreter—M. Mantoux | |
The following were also present for items in which they were concerned:
- America, United States of
- M. Rathbone
- Great Britain
- Capt. Fuller
- Cdt. MacNamara
- M. Malkin
- France
- M. Leygues
- Admiral Levavasseur
- M. Fromageot
- M. Cheysson
- M. Laroche
- M. de Montille
- M. Escoffier
- Italy
- M. Ricci-Busatti
- C. Admiral Grassi
- Cdt. Fea
- M. Bianchi
- Japan
- M. Shigemitsu
- M. Nagaoka
- Cdt. Osumi
Sir Eyre Crowe said that, with regard to the Scapa Flow question, he had not yet received general instructions from his Government. In fact, he had only received instructions on two special points: 1, they were ready to repatriate prisoners from Scapa Flow as soon as the Germans had signed the protocol;12, on the other hand, his Government was opposed to any modification whatsoever of the protocol with regard to the surrender of the five light cruisers. To agree to the German claim would, as a matter of fact, be contrary to the stipulations of the Treaty, and they were of opinion that no modification could be made to the Treaty without the assent of all the signatory Powers, a course which obviously would carry them too far. He was still waiting, as he had already mentioned, for the instructions of his Government regarding the other questions. They had, on the other hand, received a note from the French Delegation on the question of the five light cruisers, which they had not yet had time to examine, but which would entail a modification of the protocol. 1. Compensation Claimed by the Supreme Council From the German Government for the Scapa Flow Affair
Mr. Leygues said that the French Delegation had indeed envisaged a different solution from that which had been originally proposed. It would be advantageous to accept in part the Germans’ request under the following conditions: They would begin by taking delivery of the five light cruisers of the Graudenz type which they had demanded from the Germans according to the terms of the protocol. They would, however, exchange those cruisers for new cruisers under construction as they were completed. That would involve no change in the principle laid down in the protocol. But they would get material advantages in this way, that if they only left to the Germans old cruisers which would very shortly be twenty years old, Germany would be free, according to the terms of the Treaty, to build new ones as soon as the 20-year period had been reached. With the solution they proposed, on the contrary, the Germans would not be able to build new warships for eleven years and their naval forces would be diminished accordingly. They were, therefore, of the opinion that their proposal was advantageous, not only for France and Italy, but in a general way for all the Allies.
Sir Eyre Crowe said that he fully admitted the force of the arguments made by the Minister of Marine, but the fact remained that his solution implied a modification of the Treaty, which the British Government would not deem possible except with the assent of all the signatories.
Mr. Leygues replied that Sir Eyre Crowe’s remark was quite correct, but they should not conceal the fact that the situation created [Page 611] by the Treaty was abnormal and illogical. They were obliging the Germans to destroy their existing ships, and inside of a year they still might build new ones, certainly a paradoxical situation.
Mr. Clemenceau agreed, but said that they were confronted by the Treaty, and the British Government was opposed to any modification of the Treaty. It therefore seemed to him necessary to await, in order to discuss the Scapa Flow question in its entirety, until Sir Eyre Crowe received from London the general instructions he was expecting.
(The discussion was adjourned).
Mr. Clemenceau stated that they were not ready to draft a reply to the German Note until they had agreed on the questions which were still pending, such as the Scapa Flow affair. He therefore proposed to adjourn the discussion. 2. Reply to the German Note of December 142
Mr. Wallace then stated that at the meeting of the Council last Tuesday he had been asked by the President whether he would sign the protocol on behalf of the United States.3 He undertook to obtain the views of his Government in the matter, and he had now to say that he had received instructions that the United States could not be a signatory to the Protocol.
He said it would be recalled that at the same meeting of the Council a draft of a declaration to Chancellor Renner was presented and approved by his colleagues. At the same time he informed the Council of his instructions and made it quite clear that he would refer such matters to his Government. The declaration in question was communicated to Chancellor Renner the day following the meeting, that was to say, last Wednesday, and he informed his Government to that effect. In reply, he had been informed that in view of the existing circumstances the Government of the United States was not in a position to take any action whatever, on account of the fact that the Austrian Treaty had not been presented to the United States Senate.
He said that, in this connection, and in order to make his position quite clear, he had been instructed to state that in view of the fact that his participation in the deliberations of the Council was merely one of an observer, it could not be presumed that the United States was a party to any action, declaration, or resolution of the Council unless the Government of the United States expressly declared its consent thereto.
Mr. Berthelot remarked that the situation did not present itself in the same manner in the two cases referred to by Mr. Wallace. As a matter of fact, the protocol had been signed by Mr. Polk on November 1st. No American signature was any longer necessary [Page 612] if the text of the protocol was not modified, and the signature of the Germans was the only one required.
Mr. Wallace said that M. Clemenceau had asked him on the preceding Tuesday whether he would be in a position to sign the protocol. He therefore assumed that the protocol would be modified, and consequently that new signatures would be necessary; and that is why he had asked for the instructions, the sense of which he had just communicated to the Council.
Sir Eyre Crowe remarked that no member of the Council had yet signed the protocol. What had been signed was the note submitting to the Germans the draft protocol. He did not believe that that would do away with the signing the protocol itself, even in the case where no modifications were adopted.
M. Fromageot said that it did not seem necessary that the protocol should bear the signatures of the Allied Representatives. If they referred to precedents they found that the declaration relative to the non-application of Article 61 of the German Constitution3a had only been signed by the German Representative. The delegates of the Allied Powers had simply witnessed the fact of the German signature. There was only in the protocol the question of a unilateral agreement which Germany should undertake. Therefore Germany’s signature was the only one required. The Allied Representatives, or some of them, might, however, witness the fact that the signature had been given.
Sir Eyre Crowe asked whether the protocol presented itself in such a form that the procedure suggested by M. Fromageot would be applicable.
M. Fromageot said that it certainly did. It would only be necessary to omit the word “protocol” and to replace it by the term “declaration”, or some analogous expression.
M. Clemenceau said that as far as the declaration made to Chancellor Renner was concerned, Mr. Wallace was not authorized by his Government to subscribe to it at this time. On the other hand he did not believe that they should foresee any difficulty on the part of Austria, who had no interest in raising doubts on the validity of their declaration. As a matter of fact, the American Government had only declared war on Austria very late. They all understood the present difficulties of the situation in America and they naturally did not wish to do anything which might increase those difficulties. On the other hand, however, they had brought to a satisfactory conclusion the important questions which had been submitted to them. They could therefore only take note of the American Ambassador’s declaration and carry on the discussion in order to arrive either at a general signature; for it was likely that the situation might change in America, [Page 613] or to another solution which they would have to envisage at the proper time.
Mr. Wallace said he would be glad to act as soon as he received instructions allowing him to do so, and he hoped that it would not be long before he received satisfactory instructions.
M. Clemenceau remarked that as a matter of fact the declaration made to Mr. Renner did not necessitate the signatures of all the delegates; it had sufficed that he, as President of the Conference, sign the note by which that declaration had been communicated to the Chancellor.
Mr. Fromageot read and commented upon the note of the Drafting Committee as shown in Appendix “A”.
Sir Eyre Crowe said that he had listened with much pleasure to the ingenious and subtle arguments of Mr. Fromageot. It had, however, seemed to him that the latter must admit that those arguments were more ingenious than convincing. Besides, their enemies could themselves also show ingenuity, and he considered it would be dangerous for them to start a controversy, the result of which would be doubtful. If they were to tell the Germans that Article 192 did not apply to the materiel disembarked in execution of the Armistice they would be giving them a pretext which they would not fail to grasp to avoid proceeding with the destruction of that materiel. The literal sense of Articles 185 and 192 seemed to him to be that the materiel which was disembarked should be destroyed under the same conditions as all the war materiel remaining in Germany. While he did not object to the grounds underlying M. Fromageot’s argument, he yet did not wish to do anything which implied a modification of the Treaty. Even supposing that M. Fromageot’s argument could triumph, it would not be for the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to make good a lacuna in the Treaty. It would be necessary to get the consent of all the signatory Powers. Therefore, he thought it wiser to adhere to the most natural interpretation of the Treaty, notwithstanding the slight inconveniences which might be attached thereto and not to set out upon a course that was dangerous and full of pitfalls. He would add that the arguments which he had just put forward did not apply to the case of the five cruisers referred to in the protocol. As a matter of fact, the Treaty was not involved in that case and it would be sufficient to change a few words in the protocol in order to obtain the desired result. 3. Conditions Under Which the German Warships Should Be Surrendered
Mr. Clemenceau said that they should be careful not to touch the protocol; the discussion which had just taken place should incline them to great prudence in that respect.
Sir Eyre Crowe inquired whether certain changes would not be indispensable in any event, considering they had already decided [Page 614] that they would grant certain concessions to the Germans. If they did not modify the protocol it would be necessary, at the very least, to have it followed by an interpretative note.
Mr. de Martino admitted that it would be dangerous to modify the Treaty in any fashion whatsoever. But as it was only a question of interpretation, could they not sound the Germans to find out if they would not consent to surrender that materiel, a course which would avoid them the trouble and expense of destroying it? As soon as the exchange of ratifications had taken place, the Commission of Control might be asked to give the Germans their interpretation of Articles 185 and 192.
Mr. Clemenceau remarked that in any case they were entitled to demand that the breeches of guns be put back in place as the Treaty provided that the war ships to be delivered should have their complete artillery on board.
Admiral Levavasseur said that it would likewise be important to have the materiel other than artillery, especially in the case of the destroyers, torpedoes and torpedo tubes.
Mr. Clemenceau agreed, but remarked that they were confronted by the Treaty; they could not run counter to its stipulations. He thought, however, that they might propose to the Germans the interpretation suggested by Mr. Fromageot without, however, insisting if the Germans should refuse to accept it.
Sir Eyre Crowe said if they proposed that interpretation, it was to be feared that the Germans would immediately accept it, and that they would avail themselves of it so as not to destroy any of the materiel which had been disembarked. If they were to give the Germans the example of interpreting the terms of the Treaty in a way not strictly impartial, they would be exposed to endless chicane on the part of the Germans.
Mr. Fromageot said that they might ask the Germans to surrender the torpedoes and torpedo tubes without furnishing any explanation. They could always wait and see whether the Germans accepted their demand.
Mr. Clemenceau inquired whether the term “Complete artillery” did not also imply the surrender of munitions.
Sir Eyre Crowe replied that the English text had the words “guns” which did not seem to admit of such a broad interpretation.
M. Clemenceau said that they might anyhow try to obtain the accessory materiel, such as torpedoes, etc. If they met with a refusal there would always be time to take counsel.
Mr. Wallace inquired whether a verbal communication would be made, or a written note.
Mr. Clemenceau replied that a verbal communication would suffice.
[Page 615]It was decided:
- (1)
- that the Germans would be asked verbally to deliver the warships which they were to surrender according to the terms of the Treaty and which were not meant to be destroyed, not only with all their artillery, but also with their munitions and accessory materiel, such as torpedoes, torpedo tubes, etc.
- (2)
- that that demand, however, should not be made a condition sine qua non of the exchange of ratifications.
Mr. Wallace would refer the present resolution to Washington for the instructions of his Government.
M. Fromageot read and commented upon the report of the Organisation Commission of mixed Tribunals and also the reply of the Drafting Committee to certain questions put by that Commission (the two papers contained in Appendix B). He added that the question submitted to the Drafting Committee had some rather difficult aspects because acts involving violations of the laws of war could hardly have been committed on Polish territory in the course of hostilities, taking into account the fact that there had then been no organized and recognized Polish Army, and that Poland had not yet existed as a State. It would, however, seem unjust to reply to Poland’s request by an absolute refusal. It seemed that there might be grounds for giving different solutions according to the cases presented, and that the question was above all one of concrete fact. 4. List of Guilty Germans, Presented by the Polish Delegation
Sir Eyre Crowe remarked that his legal experts had told him that that question presented certain difficulties which were technical but of considerable importance. On the British side, the question had been more especially examined by Sir Ernest Pollock. As the French and Belgian representatives on the Organization Commission of Mixed Tribunals, that is to say, Mr. Ignace and M. Rolin-Jacquemyns, were going to London, where they would meet Sir Ernest Pollock, he proposed to adjourn the discussion on that subject until they knew the results of the interviews that would have taken place.
It was decided:
To adjourn the discussion of questions raised by the Polish request relative to German subjects guilty of violating the laws and customs of war until they know the results of the interviews which Sir Ernest Pollock, Mr. Ignace and M. Rolin-Jacquemyns were to have in London on the subject.
Mr. Cheysson read and commented upon the Note of the Financial Commission (See Appendix C) on the memorandum of the British Delegation (See Appendix D) relative to bank notes issued by the Bolshevist Government of Hungary. 5. Rights of Allied and Associated Nationals, Holders of Bank Notes Issued by the Sovietist Hungarian Government
[Page 616]It was decided:
To approve the Note of the Financial Commission (See Appendix C).
Mr. Laroche read and commented upon the note of the Secretariat General, as shown in Appendix E, relative to that question. 6. Insertion in the Hungarian Treaty of Clauses Relative to Certain Railroads of Common Interest to Hungary and (a) Serb-Croat-Slovene State (b) Roumania
It was decided:
To accept the clauses to be inserted in the Treaty of Peace with Hungary relative to certain railroads presenting a common interest for Hungary and neighboring States. Those clauses should be inserted in the form under which they figured in Appendix E (see Articles 302 and 303).
Mr. Wallace would refer the present resolution to Washington for the instructions of his Government.
Mr. Berthelot read and commented upon the note of the French Delegation as shown in Appendix F.
Sir Eyre Crowe said that he quite agreed that something should be done to prevent Germany from having a predominant diplomatic situation at Vienna; he thought it inadvisable, however, for the Allies to address themselves directly to Germany, all the more so as Article 80 of the Treaty of Versailles did not seem to offer very strong grounds for action. He would prefer to use the second method suggested by the note before them, and to approach the Austrian Chancellor on the matter. If they considered the very favorable frame of mind actually evinced by him for the Allies, it was hardly likely that they would meet with a refusal. 7. Diplomatic Representation of Germany at Vienna
Mr. Wallace said that he would refer that question to his Government and would advise it of the resolution which seemed to be preferred by the Council; he would ask his Government to concur therein.
It was decided:
That the Chancellor of the Austrian Republic be advised that the Allied and Associated Governments would not view with approbation the sending by Germany to Vienna of a diplomatic representative having the rank of ambassador.
Mr. Wallace would refer the present resolution to Washington for instructions of his Government.
Mr. Berthelot said that he had had an interview with General Weygand on the questions raised by the transportation of the Allied troops charged with the occupation of the plebiscite regions in Germany Certain material difficulties might arise by reason of the holiday period which was before them. General Weygand thought that in case the [Page 617] ratifications were exchanged on the following Tuesday or Wednesday, there would be grounds to specify that the measures of execution would only begin on January 5th. Such a solution would allow them to reach the time when the British troops could themselves be transported; that, according to the information in their hands, would not take place before approximately January 15. 8. Transportation of Troops in the Plebiscite Zones of Germany
Mr. de Martino inquired whether the transportation of British troops would be completed shortly after January 15th.
Sir Eyre Crowe replied that the difficulty arose from the fact that they could not send the troops raised by conscription who would have to be relieved practically at once. They would have to have recourse to forces made up of volunteers, and these would not be ready for transportation until about January 15th. They might perhaps be able nevertheless to send off their advance guards a little sooner. It would be sufficient for the British contingents to be transported amongst the last.
The meeting then adjourned.
[Page 621] [Page 623]- Appendix C to HD–80, vol. viii, p. 865.↩
- Appendix A to HD–111, p. 567.↩
- HD–111, minute 2, p. 559.↩
- For draft text of declaration, see enclosure to appendix B to HD–52, vol. viii, p. 193.↩
- Vol. ii, p. 1.↩
- The Polish Delegation states that this list has been reduced 50%. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- HD–112, minute 5, p. 590.↩
- Ante, p. 541.↩
- On May 12, 1919; see BC–61, vol. iv, p. 501.↩
- See BC–61, vol. iv, p. 501.↩