Paris Peace Conf. 180.03501/22
HD–22
Notes of a Meeting of the Heads of Delegations of the Five Great Powers Held in M. Pichon’s Room at the Quai d’Orsay, Paris, on Saturday, August 2, 1919, at 3:30 p.m.
-
Present
-
America, United States of
- Hon. F. L. Polk.
-
Secretary
- Mr. L. Harrison.
-
British Empire
- The Rt. Hon. A. J. Balfour,
-
Secretaries
- Mr. H. Norman.
- Sir Ian Malcolm.
-
France
- M. Clemenceau.
- M. Pichon.
-
Secretaries
- M. Dutasta.
- M. Berthelot.
- M. de St. Quentin
-
Italy
- M. Tittoni.
-
Secretary
- M. Paterno.
-
Japan
- M. Matsui.
-
Secretary
- M. Kawai.
-
America, United States of
Joint Secretariat | |
America, United States of | Capt. Chapin. |
British Empire | Capt. E. Abraham. |
France | Capt. A. Portier. |
Italy | Lt.-Col. A. Jones. |
Interpreter—Prof. P. J. Mantoux. |
1. M. Clemenceau informed the Council that he had received a wireless message from Lt-Col. Romanelli, commanding the Italian Military Mission at Budapest. This message was addressed to M. Clemenceau. Situation in Hungary
M. Mantoux then read the dispatch contained in Appendix “A”.
M. Tittoni said that he thought there was some misunderstanding as to the acceptance of proposals by the Allied Powers. He did not think the Allied Powers had made any proposals, as was suggested in the message. He thought that what was alluded to was the plan explained by General Boehm1 to the Allied Representative in Vienna. He had himself received a telegram from Vienna, which did not quite agree with the message read out. According to his information, General Boehm and M. Peidl2 had told the Prince Borghese3 and [Page 481] Colonel Cunninghame4 that if the Roumanians were stopped, they would be able to form a Government more completely representative of public opinion.
M. Clemenceau asked whether it was General Boehm who had caused the Revolution.
M. Tittoni said that the proposals had been made by General Boehm as representative of the Socialists and of the Labour Party. It was necessary that the Allies should take precautions not to be deceived a second time.
M. Clemenceau observed that there was no motive for negotiating a second armistice. There was already one.
Mr. Balfour said that he was in agreement. He thought the proposals referred to were those contained in the message discussed on the 26th of July. (See H. D. 14, Appendix “A”.5) He had no objection to these proposals, but what he did object to was that the responsibility for them should be laid upon the Allies. The Council was concerned with the armistice and its observance. It was not concerned with the internal Government of Hungary. No proposals had been made by the Council. That was the first point that should be made clear.
M. Clemenceau said that the second point to make clear was that there was already an armistice, and no need of a new one.
Mr. Balfour said that it was clear that hostilities must stop, but no new contract was required for this. The Roumanians could be told to stop by the Council, and they must obey. The Hungarians must also be told that they were not authorised by the armistice to advance.
M: Clemenceau said that on this subject he wished to ask Marshal Foch a question. Was it not true that the present line of the Roumanians was quite different to the line they held under the armistice?
Marshal Foch said that the line was in fact quite different. It was at the present time the line of the Theiss.
Mr. Balfour said that the Council about the 13th of June (See C. F. 65, Minute 12 and Appendices6), had ordered the Roumanians to go back from the line of the Theiss within their own frontiers. They had not done so. Their excuse had been that as the Hungarians had not disarmed as they were bound to do under the armistice, it was impossible for them to risk giving up a defendable line for one which was strategically far worse. Under the present circumstances, he thought that the Roumanians should be ordered to withdraw to the line originally laid down for them.
M. Tittoni thought that an order of this kind should be deferred. [Page 482] He thought for the time being that the Roumanians should be ordered to stop on the positions they now held. If the Hungarians gave evidence of good behaviour, the Roumanians could then be told to withdraw within their own frontiers. If, on the other hand, the Hungarians were again deceiving the Allies, any withdrawal of the Roumanians would be regretted. Should the Hungarians do all that was required of them, it would be easy to order the Roumanians to withdraw, and they would certainly comply.
M. Pichon said that there was another reason in favour of this. When the Roumanians had been assigned the armistice line, they had made it clear that it was indefensible. Nevertheless, they had conformed to it. Then they had been attacked, and, in order to repel attack, they had advanced to the Theiss. It would clearly be unfair to them to order them now to abandon that line. It was the Hungarians who had really violated the essential clauses of the armistice by maintaining a larger army than was allowed to them. The first necessity, therefore, was to force the Hungarians to reduce their forces.
Mr. Balfour said that he thought there was no great difference between his views and those of M. Tittoni and M. Pichon. Historically, however, he thought that M. Pichon was not quite accurate. He did not think that the Roumanian advance to the Theiss had been made as a consequence of attack by the Hungarians. The Roumanians had gone to the Theiss, and the Council had stopped them there. The Council had then ordered them to go back, and they did not do so. They had given no official reason for this, but, privately, M. Bratiano had explained that he must keep a defendable line against the large Hungarian army.
M. Clemenceau said that this explanation had also been given officially.
Mr. Balfour said that he had not been aware of this. In any case, the Hungarians had attacked the Roumanians on the plea that the latter had not observed the armistice. The Hungarians had been defeated, and Bela Kun’s Government had fallen. He quite agreed that the Council should avoid making the same mistake as before, but, personally, he would not make it a condition that they should have a humane and orderly Government or any specific kind of Government whatever. This was an interference in their domestic affairs. He would adhere strictly to the armistice, and call on the Hungarians to observe it. It might further be added that if the Government set up in Hungary were such as could be recognised, the Allies would make peace with it speedily.
M. Tittoni said that he thought there was really agreement. He [Page 483] pointed out that General Boehm at Vienna had not asked for a withdrawal of the Roumanian troops, but for their advance to stop.
M. Clemenceau said that the Council had no cognisance of General Boehm.
Mr. Polk asked whether the Council had not made a declaration in any manner tying its hands.
M. Clemenceau said that all that had been done was to make a general declaration to the world (H. D. 15, para. 27)
Mr. Polk asked whether the Council was not tied in any other way?
M. Clemenceau said it was not. It appeared to him that the Council was agreed that the understanding alleged in the message, between General Boehm and Prince Borghese was not binding on the Council, and that it was unnecessary to negotiate any new armistice as the old one was still in existence.
M. Tittoni said that though there was no agreement between General Boehm and Prince Borghese, nevertheless, the Allied Agents in Vienna had been instructed to conduct conversations with General Boehm, the result of which had been certain proposals agreed to by General Boehm.
It was then decided to send a telegram (see Appendix “B”) in reply to the wireless message received from Lt. Col. Romanelli at Budapesth, dated August 1st.
2. M. Clemenceau said that he had received a question from the Danish Government regarding the cost of the troops of occupation during the plebiscite period in Slesvig. The Danish Government wished to know whether expenses under the head of “Plebiscite Expenses” were to include the maintenance of these troops. Danish Request Regarding Expenses of Plebiscite in Slesvig
It was decided to notify the Danish Government in answer to their Note of August 2nd, that the Inter-Allied Military and Naval expenses of occupation during the period of the Plebiscite, should be included in the general expenses of the Plebiscite.
3. M. Clemenceau said that he had received a request from the Danish Government for the immediate despatch of warships to Flensburg, so that in case of need, order should be maintained by their help in the plebiscite zones of Slesvig. It was decided to notify the Danish Government in answer to their Note of August 2nd, that in the opinion of the Council, the British warship now present in Danish waters, together with a French warship at present on its way there, should suffice to maintain order. The British Admiral Commanding the Naval forces would [Page 484] be able to estimate the situation at Flensburg, and to take necessary measures. Danish Request for Warships at Flensburg
4. It was decided to refer to the Commission on Political Clauses the Articles proposed by the Greek Delegation for insertion in the Treaty of Peace with Bulgaria (see Appendix “C”). Reference to a Commission of Articles Proposed by the Greek Delegation for Insertion in the Treaty of Peace With Bulgaria
5. (Marshal Foch and the Military Representatives at Versailles entered the room.)Strength of the Bulgarian Army
Marshal Foch read a statement regarding the Bulgarian Forces (see Appendix “D”).
Mr. Balfour said that his comment on the conclusion of the statement read by Marshal Foch, was that it would appear that the Allies must make a Peace agreeable to Bulgaria because they were unable to enforce a disagreeable one. He was not very willing to acquiesce in such a conclusion unless it were inevitable.
Marshal Foch said that Bulgaria had nine Divisions. These Divisions were easily convertible to war strength. Against them were very weak Allied Forces. The British force consisted of 40 men—the Italian of one Battalion—the French of two Divisions, which would be reduced by demobilisation to 15,000 men. There were also two thin Roumanian Divisions—one Serbian Brigade & six Greek Divisions. The last represented the bulk of the available forces.
M. Clemenceau asked Marshal Foch what he thought of the military value of the Greek Divisions.
Marshal Foch said that he was not prepared to express any opinion.
M. Pichon observed that General Guillaumat9 had thought well of them.
Marshal Foch said that the troops that General Guillaumat had thought well of, were National Defence troops. Since the check received at Smyrna by the Greek Army, it was not unlikely that the morale of the Greek troops had suffered.
Mr. Balfour said he would like to enquire whether the Military stores, which, according to a clause of the Armistice, had been deposited under Allied guard within Bulgarian territory, could be seized by the Bulgarian Army should it wish to resist the orders of the Conference?
Marshal Foch replied that the Bulgarian Army could probably seize them.
Mr. Balfour said it was regrettable that such a provision had been made in the Armistice.
Marshal Foch remarked that when the Armistice was made, better terms could not be obtained.
[Page 485]M. Clemenceau asked whether a portion of the military material had not been withdrawn outside Bulgarian territory.
General Weygand said that the firing mechanism of one-twentieth of the rifles—one-tenth of the machine guns, and one-sixth of the guns, had been removed to Salonika. The remainder was still on Bulgarian soil under Allied guard.
Mr. Balfour asked whether the Allied guard would be sufficient to protect these stores against the Bulgarian Army?
General Weygand replied that he thought not, but he suggested that General Baird,10 who had just come from Bulgaria, should be asked to make a statement on the present condition of affairs there.
Marshal Foch said he thought it would be well to hear General Baird. He thought the Bulgarian Government was not inclined to resist the Conference, but it was possible that the population might rise and gain possession of these stores.
M. Clemenceau said that he was not very much alarmed by the Bulgarian situation. He agreed with Marshal Foch that the Government was unlikely to resist. As to popular risings, he thought they would not be very serious. Popular forces did not count much against regular troops. There were in all 15,000 French troops and 6 Greek Divisions, which should, and must, act. Greece was particularly interested, and her troops would doubtless behave well when acting in a national cause. Moreover, some of the Greek troops in Asia Minor could, if necessary, be recalled. If, however, it were required, Great Britain and Italy would doubtless come to the rescue. Moreover, he did not think that Bulgaria by herself would defy the whole victorious Alliance. Germany had been defeated, and the only quarter to which Bulgaria could look was the Entente. Germany had not dared to defy the Conference, and it was most unlikely that Bulgaria would. He quite agreed, however, that it would be useful to hear General Baird, and, if then thought necessary, to make a communication to the Bulgarian Delegation at Neuilly.
Mr. Balfour said that he was inclined to agree with M. Clemenceau’s estimate of the situation. Unfortunately, Bulgaria was not the only quarter in which the Allies were weak. The American Congress, the British House of Commons and the French Chamber were all anxious to demobilise.
M. Clemenceau said that modern war differed from wars in the past, and the weakness indicated by Mr. Balfour, which came about at the cessation of hostilities, applied to the enemy as well as to ourselves. He himself had apprehended resistance by the Germans to the terms relating to Poland. Germany, however, had acquiesced. He felt sure that Bulgaria would do likewise.
[Page 486](It was decided to request General Baird, through the British delegation, to be present at a meeting of the Council on August 4th, and to make a statement on the present situation in Bulgaria.)
6. General Weygand read a letter from General Nollet11 and a covering letter from Marshal Foch on the subject of allowances for Allied Officers on the Missions of Control in Berlin (see Appendix “E”). Scale of Pay for Officer Attached of Control in Germany
It was decided to refer to the Military Representatives at Versailles for study and report, the question of allowances for Allied Officers on the Missions of Control in Germany.
7. General Belin read the report of the Military Representatives at Versailles (see Appendix “F”).
M. Tittoni said that it was important that the prisoners should be repatriated in small groups. One of the reasons for obstacles raised by Poland, Lithuania and other neighbouring States, was the fear that large batches of Russian prisoners should escape and take to looting. Repatriation of Russian Prisoners of War Interned in Germany
General Belin said that this was a point of detail which the Commission might deal with.
Mr. Polk asked whether General Belin could make any estimate of the time that the whole operation would take.
General Belin said that General Malcolm12 thought it should be completed before the end of the year.
Mr. Polk said that from the American point of view there was a difficulty. There were about 800 American Officers and men on duty with the American Mission in Germany. Owing to the American demobilisation, no money would be available for the upkeep of this Mission, nor for the supplies of food for the Russian Prisoners of War for the length of time indicated by General Belin. He pointed out that there were originally two million Russian prisoners in Germany, but that this total had now been reduced to 200,000. He suggested that it would be as well to charge the German Government with the care of the remainder.
General Bliss said that the substance of what he meant to say had already been explained by Mr. Polk. He would recall that it was a report by Mr. Hoover13 to the effect that the funds available for the upkeep of these Russian Prisoners, had been exhausted which had led to the examination of the subject at Versailles. He and Mr. White had recommended in Washington that the Armies of Occupation on the Rhine should be made responsible for the care of these prisoners, [Page 487] but this view had not prevailed. It was now necessary to withdraw all American conscripted men from Europe. In support of this he read the following letter:—
general
headquarters
american expeditionary forces
office of
the chief of staff
August 2, 1919.
Dear General Buss:
The Commander-in-Chief desires me to request you to use your best efforts with your colleagues to hasten the permission for him to withdraw our officers and troops in Berlin. At the time of the signing of the Peace orders had already been given for the withdrawal of the entire mission numbering approximately 700 persons. At the request of Marshal Foch on the 30th of June, General Pershing agreed to suspend the orders for a few days. On taking the matter up again on his return from London on the 24th of July, Marshal Foch informed him that the matter of the withdrawal of our representation there had been taken out of his hands and was vested in the Commission to Negotiate Peace. With the Conference between you and me, on the subject since that time, you are familiar.
Without assuming to discuss the desirability of the United States maintaining troops in Berlin after Germany has ratified the Peace, in connection with the repatriation of Russian prisoners of war, we have imperative orders from the War Department to get all temporary personnel home by a certain time. It is necessary from that standpoint that the most expeditious action be had and a decision reached at the earliest date possible which will enable General Pershing to withdraw all officers and men now on that mission.
May I ask that you will help us in this matter.
Sincerely yours,
J. G. Harbord
Chief of Staff
General Tasker H.
Bliss,
American Commission to
Negotiate Peace, Hotel Crillon—Paris.
He suggested that the only solution was for the Allies to relieve the Americans of their share in this work, or for Germany to take over the whole thing.
Mr. Balfour said that he did not think the scheme elaborated at Versailles very practical. What was proposed was a Commission. A Commission alone could do nothing. The American share alone at present required the services of 700 men. The British Red Cross had, he believed, a considerable personnel, and undertook a considerable share of the work. Their funds were exhausted, and their personnel was being recalled. It was clear that this system could not be continued. A Commission without an Army behind it, could not act as substitute. The Americans could not provide men. Without consulting Experts, he was prepared to say that the British could not supply any. He doubted whether France or Italy could find them. The system would, therefore, break down. There was another objection. [Page 488] If the old arrangement were patched up, it would appear that the Allies still regarded themselves as responsible. If they undertook the responsibility and failed to carry out their undertakings, they would be discredited. He thought the responsibility should be repudiated. After Peace, it was quite unnecessary for the Allies to continue supporting Russian prisoners taken by the Germans. He noticed that it was suggested that 145,000 Russians should be repatriated by rail. It would be extremely difficult to prevail upon the Poles and Lithuanians to forward them over land. Meanwhile, he wished to ask who should feed them. Another 70,000 or 80,000 were to go by sea. He had the greatest doubt whether shipping could be found for them except at the expense of more vital services. He therefore recommended that the responsibility be thrown on the Germans. It was a responsibility they should have always borne. If the Germans then applied to the Allies for assistance, it would be time to consider what could be done. This policy was clear and freed the Allies from a task which they could not undertake without incurring discredit.
Mr. Polk then suggested the following resolution:—
That the Council of the Allied and Associated Powers notify the Government at once that all restrictions heretofore placed on the repatriation of the Russian prisoners of war in Germany, are removed, and that henceforth the responsibility of supporting them must rest with the German Government.
(This proposal was accepted.)
8. M. Clemenceau said that the question was whether or not the Baltic Commission should concern itself with the question of access to the Baltic. Proposed Treaty Regarding Access to the Baltic
Mr. Balfour said that access to the Baltic from the North Sea at present depended not on any Treaty, but on immemorial custom. It was now suggested that this custom should be regularised by formal Inter-Allied sanction. This would establish a common régime for all the channels. In the Sound and the Great Belt, traffic, he believed, had never been stopped by the neutrals on their shores. They interfered neither with trading vessels nor with warships. In the Little Belt, however, the Germans had stopped traffic, and had laid mines. They could do so again, and this was not contrary either to the law of nations or to the practice thereof. If the proposals now before the Council (Appendix “G”) were accepted, all the channels would be made free for traffic. Whether it was worth while to engage in difficult negotiations to obtain this, he did not know.
M. della Torretta explained that the Commission had not examined the merits of the question, as it did not know whether it was empowered to examine it at all.
[Page 489]Mr. Polk questioned whether it would not be better to send the question to a Special Commission rather than to the Baltic Commission. He understood that the Baltic Commission was not composed of naval men. This appeared to be a naval question.
M. Tittoni suggested that naval experts be attached to the Baltic Commission for the purpose of examining the question.
(It was decided that the report of the British Delegation relative to access to the Baltic Sea be referred to the Baltic Commission, assisted by the naval experts, for examination and report.
The Baltic Commission should be responsible for summoning a joint meeting.)
9. (It was decided to refer the letter of the Roumanian Delegation dated August 2nd—Appendix “H”—proposing an amendment to the Economic Clauses of the Bulgarian Peace Treaty to the Economic Commission, for examination and report.)Amendment Proposed by Roumanian Delegation for Insertion in the Economic Clauses of the Treaty With Bulgaria
(The meeting then adjourned.)
Villa Majestic, Paris, August 2, 1919.
[Page 496] [Page 503]- General Wilhelm Boehm, Hungarian Minister at Vienna; Hungarian People’s Commissar for War and commander in chief of the Hungarian Red Army, March–July, 1919.↩
- Julius Peidl, Hungarian Socialist leader; Minister of Foreign Affairs in the Hungarian Republic, January 18–March 21, 1919.↩
- Prince Don Felice Borghese, Italian representative at Vienna.↩
- Col. Sir Thomas A. Cunninghame, chief of the British Military Mission at Vienna.↩
- Ante, p. 310.↩
- vol. vi, p. 399.↩
- Ante, p. 317.↩
- Gen. Adolphe Guillaumat, commander in chief of the Allied Armies in the East, December 1917 to June 1918.↩
- Brig. Gen. Alexander W. F. Baird, chief of the British Military Mission to Bulgaria.↩
- Of the French Army, president of the Inter-Allied Military Control Commission.↩
- Maj. Gen. Neill Malcolm, of the British Army, president of the Inter-Allied Commission for the Repatriation of Russian Prisoners of War.↩
- Appendix B to HD–11, p. 230.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- The translation is that found under Paris Peace Conf. 185.003/18; revised by the editors.↩
- Supra. ↩
- The military convention between the Allies and Hungary, signed November 13, 1918, is printed in vol. ii, p. 183.↩
- Appendices V (A) and V (B) to CF–65, vol. vi, pp. 411 and 412.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- vol. ii, p. 241.↩
- August von Mackensen, commander of the German-Bulgarian Army in the Balkans, 1917–1918.↩
- Letter 15.485/2M/ of May 19. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- 1515 cannon, 659,000 rifles, 2,378 machine guns, 382 million cartridges, 3½ million shells. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- The number of firing mechanisms removed from the weapons amounted to: l/20th of the rifles, 1/10th of the machine guns, 1/6th of the cannon. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- Letter No. 16.099/2M. of July 1. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- The translation is that found under Paris Peace Conf. 185.116401/1.↩
- The translation is that found under Paris Peace Conf. 185.116401/1.↩
- HD–11, minute 6, p. 208.↩
- Note: In this connection consideration should be given to the complete revictualling of any such reinforcement, or new organisations, as might be formed, and the dispatch of Missions to regulate their absorption. This would have to be provided by the Allied and Associated Powers. [Footnote in the original.]↩
- British and Foreign State Papers, vol. xlvii, p. 24.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- Maurice Herbette, French representative, Section on Economic Treaties, Economic Commission.↩
- Foreign Relations, 1918, supp. 1, vol. i, p. 771.↩
- British and Foreign State Papers, vol. cvii, p. 658.↩