Paris Peace Conf. 180.03401/13½
CF–13A
Notes of a Meeting Held at President Wilson’s House in the Place des Etats-Unis, Paris, on Wednesday, 14 May, 1919, at 4 p.m.
- Present
- United States of America
- President Wilson.
- British Empire
- The Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd George, M. P.
- France
- M. Clemenceau.
- United States of America
| Sir Maurice Hankey, K. C. B. | Secretary. |
| Professor P. J. Mantoux | Interpreter. |
1. Asia Minors: Mandates The Council had before it two resolutions prepared for Mr. Lloyd George by Mr. Harold Nicolson of the British Delegation. (Appendix I and Appendix II).
Lloyd George explained that these proposals had been prepared as part of a comprehensive scheme to be presented to the Italian Delegation.
2. Mandate for the United States of America President Wilson said that he would accept the resolution contained in Appendix I in regard to the acceptance of a Mandate by the United States of America for Armenia and another for Constantinople and the Straits, subject to the assent of the Senate. The only alteration he wished to make was the inclusion in paragraph 2 of the Italian Delegation among the Powers to agree on the frontiers of the mandate in regard to the Straits.
M. Clemenceau also accepted Appendix I with this alteration.
3. The Greek, French and Itallian Mandates Mr. Lloyd George produced a map which had been prepared by Mr. Nicolson of the British Delegation to accompany the resolutions in Appendix II.
President Wilson noted that, in this map, the valley of the Meander was included in the territory to be united to Greece. He agreed that this was the best arrangement. When the United States’ experts had proposed to cut this out of the Greek zone, they had done so in the Turkish interest and on the supposition that there would be an independent Turkish State. The present scheme, however, was not providing for a separate Turkey independent of mandate.
Mr. Lloyd George said that the Italians would press very strongly for Scala Nuova.
[Page 615]President Wilson said that it would be inexpedient to have the Italians there in such close contact to the territory united to Greece.
Mr. Lloyd George pointed out that the map did not give Mersina to the Italians. This raised the question of what port Italy was to have.
Sir Maurice Hankey read the following notes about the ports of Marmarice, Karaghatch and Makri, which had been prepared in the Naval Section of the British Delegation:—
“Marmarice.
This magnificent harbour is completely land-locked, and affords secure anchorage with good holding ground for a large number of deep draught vessels. It is well adapted for use as a Naval Base. There appears to be no reason why it should not also be equally suitable as a commercial port, provided the communications to the interior were developed.
Karaghatch.
This is also a fine harbour, but does not appear to be so suitable as Marmarice for a commercial port, owing to the rugged nature of the surrounding land. Communication with the interior is quite undeveloped.
Makri.
This harbour though affording complete shelter is not so large as the two harbours mentioned above, and owing to neighbouring marshes, the town is exceedingly unhealthy. It would appear to afford better facilities for reclamation and wharfage than Marmarice and Karaghatch, and communication with the interior is more developed. An Italian Syndicate shortly before the war was considering the question of constructing railways from Makri to Mougla, etc.
He also read extracts from the “Mediterranean Pilot,” Vol. 5, and produced the charts.
President Wilson urged that the line should be drawn so as not to include the harbour of Marmarice, which he understood to have been the intention on the previous day.
(This was agreed to.)
(Mr. Harold Nicolson entered.)
President Wilson and Mr. Lloyd George gave Mr. Nicolson the necessary instructions for re-cirawing the map so as not to include Marmarice in the Italian zone. Mr. Nicolson was also instructed to revise Appendix II, page 2, so as to substitute Makri for Marmarice.
(Mr. Nicolson withdrew.)
President Wilson then read Appendix II. In Resolution 3, the following sentence: “In view of the fact that the Turkish Government has not shown itself able to protect the interests of Christian populations under its sovereignty” was altered by the omission of the word “Christian” and the substitution of the word “the.” The name “Makri” was substituted for “Marmarice.”
[Page 616]Mr. Lloyd George considered that the arrangement was now all right.
M. Clemenceau also agreed.
President Wilson said it looked to him all right.
(The resolutions reproduced in Appendices I and II were approved, as the basis of part of an offer to be made to Italy.)
4. Armenian Mandate President Wilson pointed out that the boundaries of the Armenian Mandate had not yet been drawn. He suggested that the map in the ante-room, which had been drawn by American experts, provided suitable boundaries.
(The Council then adjourned to the ante-room and studied the map prepared by American experts.)
President Wilson pointed out that the Southern boundary was drawn so as to leave Alexandretta south of the Silesian [Cilician] boundary.
Mr. Lloyd George pointed out that the Western boundary in the region of the Black Sea differed somewhat from the line prepared by British experts. He hanaed a map drawn by British experts to President Wilson, who undertook to consider it in consultation with his own experts.
(The Council returned to the Library.)
5. Syrian Mandate M. Clemenceau said that, in order to make a clean job of it, some arrangement ought to be made between General Allenby and the Emir Feisal. The latter had behaved very well since his arrival in Syria.
Mr. Lloyd George suggested that, at the moment, the best plan would be to draw a map of occupation, showing what territories would be occupied by the various Powers concerned He suggested that there should be a small Committee to examine the question.
(M. Clemenceau nominated M. Tardieu.
Mr. Lloyd George nominated General Sir Henry Wilson.)
6. Somaliland M. Clemenceau said that the French experts in the Foreign Office would not hear of any arrangement with the Italians about Djibouti.
7. Reparation: Right of Withdrawal From the commission President Wilson said it had been brought to his notice that the clause intended to have been included in the Reparation Clauses of the Treaty of Peace with Germany. Part VIII, Annex 2 paragraph 2, had been omitted. He suggested, therefore, that the only thing to be done was to sign an agreement, of which he read a draft.
Mr. Lloyd George thought it would be better to reinsert it in the Treaty of Peace.
President Wilson agreed that it might be put in an errata.
[Page 617]Mr. Lloyd George proposed that it should be included when the final reply was given to the Germans. He did not like having too many documents on these subjects.
President Wilson agreed.
(The Agreement in Appendix III was initialled, and Sir Maurice Hankey was instructed, after obtaining M. Orlando’s initials, to forward it to the Drafting Committee for incorporation in the final Treaty with Germany.)
(M. Orlando’s initials were affixed the same evening. M. P. H.)
8. Instructions to the Drafting Committee To Be Initialled by the Supreme Council President Wilson informed Sir Maurice Hankey that it had been agreed during an informal conversation on the previous afternoon that the Drafting Committee should only take instructions from the Supreme Council ot the principal Allied and Associated Powers in regard to the material for Articles to be inserted in the Treaties of Peace, and that these instructions should be initialled by the Heads of States.
9. Sir Maurice Hankey read the following note from Mr. Hurst, on behalf of the Drafting Committee:—
League of Nations & Labour Convention in the Teaties of Peace With Austria & With Hungary “The present intention of the Drafting Committee is to insert the Covenant of the League of Nations and the draft Labour Convention and Resolutions in the Treaty of Peace with Austria in exactly the same with Hungary manner as has been done in the draft Treaty of Peace with Germany. If this is not in accordance with the wishes of the Council of Prime Ministers, we should be glad if you would let us know. I have ascertained from Lord Robert Cecil and Mr. Barnes that the above is in accordance with their views. Some of the Allied and Associated Powers represented at the Peace Conference were not at war with Austria, but we are making them all parties to the Treaties and modifying the language of the first clause, so as to bring in statements as to the termination of the war and the resumption of the relations being [not?] inconsistent with their being parties; consequently, it is quite feasible to insert the Covenant of the league of Nations without any alteration, as the signatories to the Austrian Treaty and to the German Treaty will be the same; no alteration, therefore, will be required in Article I and in the Annex to the Covenant.”
(The above was approved and initialled. Sir Maurice Hankey Was instructed to forward it to Mr. Hurst, after obtaining M. Orlando’s initials.)
10. Austria and the League of Nations President Wilson expressed the hope that M. Clemenceau’s proposal would be adopted and that Austria would be inserted in the list of Nations invited to adhere to the League of Nations. He, himself, was strongly in favour of this proposal He doubted, however, whether the Supreme Council had the right to decide this without consulting a plenary meeting.
[Page 618]M. Clemenceau said it ought not to decide in the absence of the Italian Representatives.
President Wilson agreed.
11. Mr. Lloyd George asked what was the nature of the mandate contemplated for the Italians in Anatolia.
Nature of Mandates & sovereignty in Anatolia President Wilson said he had in mind the Moslem feeling about not wiping out the Turkish race. His idea had been Turkish State in the north of Anatolia and to put it under the supervision of France. He pointed out that, under the scheme of mandates as originally devised, there were three classes, one class consisted of nations which were on the verge of being able to run themselves and only required a very loose mandate, a second class provided for less developed countries, and a third class provided for wholly dependent countries.
M. Clemenceau asked what differences he contemplated in regard to the Turkish population in the Italian and French mandates in Anatolia.
President Wilson said he had understood that in the north the population was more purely Turkish.
Mr. Lloyd George said that this was not the case outside the coastal districts.
President Wilson said that the awkward question to decide was that of sovereignty. If what Mr. Lloyd George said was correct, it would be better not to extend the sovereignty of Northern Anatolia over Southern Anatolia, otherwise both France and Italy would have advisers at the Turkish capital dealing with different parts of Turkish territory.
Mr. Lloyd George said that that was the great argument against dividing Anatolia.
M. Clemenceau asked what sort of mandate was contemplated in each case.
President Wilson said it was substantially the same.
Mr. Lloyd George read a memorandum which had been prepared by Mr. Balfour in consultation with experts in the Foreign Office, in which some sort of a condominium was contemplated.
M. Clemenceau said that a condominium would never do. It was bound to give rise to difficulties and might even give rise to wars. He was reminded by Mr. Lloyd George that there had been great trouble between France and Great Britain in Egypt, which might have resulted in war between the two countries but for his personal intervention.
Mr. Lloyd George continued to read Mr. Balfour’s memorandum, in which some international body for finance was proposed.
President Wilson was altogether opposed to that. In regard to a proposal in the memorandum providing for prior claims in regard to [Page 619] concessions for the mandatory Power, he pointed out that this was contrary to the principle provided for in the League of Nations’ Covenant for equal opportunity to all Nations in mandated territory. This did not mean that the United States of America would rush in everywhere. Direct American enterprise was certainly not to be expected in Anatolia. There would certainly be a natural priority to the Mandatory but there should not be a priority of claim.
Mr. Lloyd George quite agreed and pointed out that it would be very unfair if the Italians had a priority of claim in Southern Anatolia when the British were compelled to give equal opportunity in German East Africa.
President Wilson said that his object all along had been to avoid even an appearance of grabbing. These considerations brought us face to face with the problem as to the form of political unity which was to exist in Southern Anatolia. His idea would be to organise it as a self-governing unit, to elect its own Governor-General with Konia as its capital. Otherwise, there would be the difficulty of a single capital in which the representatives of both Mandatories would live.
Mr. Lloyd George said that another scheme was that the Sultan should remain in Constantinople exercising supervision over the whole of Turkey. France would then overlook one part of Anatolia, Italy another part, Greece a third, while the United States overlooked the Sultan. If Brusa was in the French Mandate and the Sultan ruled over the whole of Anatolia, it would create a very awkward situation for the Italians.
President Wilson said that Southern Anatolia would have to be constituted as a separate unit.
M. Clemenceau asked who would appoint the Governor?
Mr. Lloyd George suggested the Sultan under advice.
President Wtlson asked if the Turks could not elect a Governor.
Mr. Lloyd George said this would make it a Republic.
President Wilson said he had no objection to this.
Mr. Lloyd George thought that difficulties would arise in connection with the Khalif ate in this case.
M. Clemenceau said his objection to any scheme by which the Sultan nominated the Governor or to any scheme of election was that there would be a French and an Italian candidate and this would always give rise to friction and difficulty. He suggested that a Prince should be drawn from the Sultan’s family and appointed to rule in Anatolia. In any other scheme, there would be trouble all the time.
President Wilson suggested that the Italians should be left to choose a member of the Sultan’s family.
[Page 620]M. Clemenceau said that Southern Anatolia would then be an independent State under an Italian Mandate.
(On President Wilson’s suggestion, it was agreed in principle that Anatolia should be separated politically into two parts, the method of separation being left for further consideration. It was also agreed that, as President Wilson had some information to the effect that there was a prospect of the Italians and Yugo-Slavs coming to an understanding on the Adriatic question and as the proposals in regard to Asia Minor were only part of comprehensive proposals to be presented to the Italian Delegation, the resolutions agreed to should not be presented to the Italian Delegation for the moment.
M. Clemenceau undertook to speak to M. Orlando in this sense.)
12. Austrian and Hungarian Treaties: Recognition of New States With reference to C. F. 6. Minute l,1 and Appendix I to those Minutes, Sir Maurice Hankey read the following letter from Mr. Hurst, the British Representative on the Drafting Committee:—
“You will remember the instructions that went to the Drafting Committee about the frontiers of Austria and Hungary and of contiguous countries. It is a paper marked Appendix II [III] to C. F. 4.2 The interpretation which we are putting on the second sentence is that the Big Four desire that the frontiers of a country like Roumania who [should?] so far as possible be set out in the Treaty with Hungary not merely the frontier between Roumania and Hungary itself. That is to say, that the Northern frontier of Roumania where it joins Russia and the Southern frontier where it touches Bulgaria will both be set out when a decision has been come to as to what that frontier should be. The same would apply even though the State concerned had no common frontier whatever with the enemy before with whom the treaty was made. For instance. Roumania. Though Roumania will not touch Austria, the Roumania frontiers would nevertheless be set out in the Treaty with Austria. This seems to follow from the second sentence of your paper, but I should like to make sure that we are right in this.”
(After a short discussion, it was agreed that Mr. Hurst’s interpretation of the previous decision was correct, and Sir Maurice Hankey was authorised to inform him accordingly.)
13. With reference to C. F. 13, Minute 6,3
Claims of the Chinese Delegation M. Clemenceau signed the following letter to the Head of the Chinese Delegation:—
14 May, 1919.
“Your Excellency,
On behalf of the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, I beg to acknowledge the receipt from the Chinese Delegation of two [Page 621] pamphlets, one of which sets forth China’s claim submitting for abrogation by the Peace Conference the Treaties and Notes uy and between China and Japan of May 25th, 1915, and the other presents for readjustment by the Conference a number of important questions, among which may be mentioned the withdrawal from China of foreign troops and police, the withdrawal of foreign post offices and the abolition of consular jurisdiction.
In reply I am asked to state that while the Supreme council of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers fully recognises the importance of the questions raised they do not consider that they fall within the province of the Peace Conference and they suggest that these matters should be brought to the attention of the Council of the League of Nations as soon as that body is able to function.
I am
Your Excellency’s Obedient Servant
(Signed) G. Clemenceau
His Excellency
M. Lou
Tseng-Tsfang,
Ministre des Affaires Etrangères.”
14. With reference to C. F. 13, Minute 7,4
Berne Labour Conference and the Peace Terms M. Clemenceau signed the following letter to Mr. Arthur Henderson:—
14 May, 1919.
“Sir,
I am asked by the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to inform you that they have considered youi request, transmitted verbally through Mr. Lloyd George, that the Supreme Council shall receive a deputation from the International Trades Union Conference in Berne.
In reply I am asked to state that as the summary of the Peace Terms is already published and has been communicatee’ to the German plenipotentiaries, it is felt that no usefu! object would now be served by the proposed deputation.
I am, Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
(Signed) G. Clemenceau
The Rt. Hon. A. Henderson.”
15. Montenegro Sir Maurice Hankey reminded the Council that before the Meeting with the German Delegates the question had been raised as to the recognition of Montenegro, and that it had been agreed that a decision ought to be taken in regard to Montenegrin representation before the Austrian settlement was concluded (I. C. 181. E., Minute 6).5
Mr. Lloyd George said that according to his recollection early in the Conference it had been agreed that the United States should send a Commissioner to investigate and report on matters in Montenegro.
(Sir Maurice Hankey was instructed to investigate this question.)
Villa Majestic, Paris, 14 May, 1919.
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