295. Transcript of a Telephone Conversation Between Senator Barry M. Goldwater and the President’s Assistant for National Security Affairs (Kissinger)1
K: I like what you said.
G: Well, we’ve had very good reaction to that, Henry.
K: Good, very good.
G: I was in New York yesterday and was really surprised to get the reaction to that in the New York Times piece they printed of mine.2
K: Well, I like that too.
G: Well, we’re going to keep banging away at them; I think we’ll making headway.
K: Because what you said about the split between the President and me, it’s you know—it’s exactly right—that’s what our opponents are trying to do in order to reduce my effectiveness.
G: That’s right. Well, they’re not getting very far with it.
K: Because Jesus, you know, everything—Well, you know the facts; there’s no sense talking—Barry, what I called you about is this—I [Page 1071] was wondering whether you would consider making a statement today in effect saying to Thieu, what’s important now isn’t this or that comma or word or clause; what’s important now is to maintain the unity between us.
G: This is directed to President Thieu.
K: That’s right. Because we are at a point now where if they keep nitpicking around in Saigon on these abstruse theological points, they are going to get so much opposition to themselves triggered here.
G: Yes.
K: The difference is between them and us. I mean, we shouldn’t say that but just for your information—cannot be explained to the American people.
G: No, that’s for sure.
K: I mean, they are abstruse points—you take—when the agreement is published, you’ll see, for example, that we’ve got the word sovereignty in there in three or four places.
G: Yes.
K: But we can’t make them sign it in blood in a separate sentence, you see what I mean?
G: Yes.
K: So they have to show a little subtlety. But basically what will make this agreement go isn’t legal clauses.
G: Yes, that’s right.
K: What will make this agreement go is the willingness of the American people and the American President to back them.
G: That’s right.
K: And that willingness they are going to jeopardize if they are going to get such a debate started here about themselves that we will be on the defensive right away.
G: Well, let me get something together, Henry.
K: Because it would really be a great help. They take you seriously and we’ve gotten practically everything we went after.
G: All right. Let me get it together and I’ll get it right out.
K: Thank you, Barry.
G: Okay, Henry.3
- Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, Kissinger Telephone Conversations, Box 18, Chronological File. No classification marking.↩
- See “Mr. Nixon’s Feelings,” in The New York Times, January 9, 1973, p. 39.↩
- At 11:17 a.m. Kissinger called Goldwater again to say: “Barry, the only thing I wanted to add is you won’t say that you and I talked.” To which the Senator replied: “Oh, hell, no. No, it’s all on me.” (National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, Kissinger Telephone Conversations, Box 18, Chronological File)↩