135. Memorandum of Telephone Conversation Between President Johnson and the Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mann)1
[Here follows discussion unrelated to South Asia.]
Mr. Mann told the President that he was working on a draft concerning India and Pakistan.2 He told the President that Mr. Woods had [Page 283] talked to Ayub in London and had told him that we were uncertain as to what we were going to do on the consortium July 27. Mr. Mann said that in essence Mr. Woods had said that our relations were not of the best; that we were sort of tired of being like a cow that is kicked in the side when milk is wanted and then kicked in the side to let it know that no more milk was needed at the moment.
Mr. Mann told the President what Mr. Woods had said and said he thought that Mr. Woods had done a good job. Mr. Mann said we have a different situation with the Indians. They have not been insulting us as much—particularly in the past ten days.
Mr. Mann said that he hoped to have the memo ready by tomorrow. He said he was suggesting that we begin a dialogue with India and Pakistan in which we say in effect that we do not mind cooperating but we expect the same kind of respect everyone else does and say if we cannot establish the kind of understanding the people of this country have a right to expect and want, then we cannot go ahead. If we can reach an understanding then we can go ahead. Mr. Mann said all this would be in the memo and he hoped the President would buy it. He said he would like to see the President send somebody over to talk with Shastri—not at a high level—but quietly. He suggested Mr. Bell.
The President said he did not wish to send anybody over and that he thought our Ambassadors should go and talk to these people. Mr. Mann said that the Ambassador to India (Bowles) was [Page 284] here. The President said that the Charge should do it. The President said that he should go in and say that we understand that they are not going to be able to come to America and our President cannot go there and the reason for the postponement was because of the heavy feeling and that we would be glad to discuss it if they want to send somebody over. If they do not wish to do this we will understand. Mr. Mann asked the President if he wanted these men to come over on State visits and the President said he did not but he also did not want to be sending his people over there to give money away. He said he thought that we should tell our Ambassadors in these two countries, that in a dignified and reserved way they should say that we regret very much but we completely understand Mr. Shastri’s inability to come. We regret we have to postpone it, but in the President’s judgment sentiment is such that he would have no bill at all and that there is a different attitude in our country now on the part of the people and the President (after spending 40 billion in Asia) and we had hoped we would be able to talk it out, but since he could not come, if he wanted to send someone else, or have his Ambassador talk with us about it, that will be fine. The President said that we could let Nehru come in. We then tell him we understand but we are not going to be able to go along on economic basis.
Mr. Mann said he thought that on the Pakistan side, Mr. Woods had already made the first steps towards getting a representative over here. The President told Mr. Mann to go ahead and draft whatever he wanted to but that he would like to talk to him about it. He said he would prefer to discuss this with Mr. Mann. Mr. Mann said he understood and that he would draft a paper and then talk to the President about it.
The President said that we should let these people know, through our Ambassadors, that we have pulled up business for a while. Mr. Mann said o.k.