Office of the Historian

118. Memorandum of Conversation1

Washington, June 4, 1965, 2 p.m.

SUBJECT

  • Europe

PARTICIPANTS

  • Germans
    • Dr. Ludwig Erhard, Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany
    • Dr. Gerhard Schroeder, Federal Minister for Foreign Affairs
    • Ambassador Heinrich Knappstein, German Embassy
    • Mr. Karl-Guenther von Hase, State Secretary; Federal Press Spokesman
    • Mr. Hermann Kusterer, Interpreter
  • Americans
    • The President
    • The Secretary
    • Ambassador George C. McGhee
    • Mr. John M. Leddy, Assistant Secretary,EUR
    • Mr. George E. Reedy, Press Secretary to the President
    • Mr. Harry Obst, Interpreter

Chancellor Erhard said the visit of the Queen2 had been a great success and that it refuted de Gaulle’s thesis of a continental Europe.

Ambassador McGhee complimented Erhard on his compromise in the grain price conflict. He said this had pulled Germany out of a position of isolation in the EEC and had left de Gaulle in isolation on almost every point in the EEC.

Secretary Rusk said he had been favorably impressed with the attitude of the Labor Government in Britain towards Germany after the British [Page 293] elections. He had been concerned before the elections, but was happy with the situation now.

Chancellor Erhard commented that one problem with the French was that you never knew how long they would keep their promises. de Gaulle had agreed to the MLF, and one-half year later he almost broke the Franco-German Friendship Treaty. In Rambouillet he had promised him the chiefs of state would have a meeting on European political union, and four months later he declared the issue dead and said a meeting was impossible. No basic feeling of trust was possible with such a partner. De Gaulle’s idea of Europe was French hegemony. He knew he could not bring this about alone, but needed Germany’s support. Germany did not want that, nor did it even want Franco-German hegemony. He believed that de Gaulle felt he was running out of time and that he had to press the issue now. de Gaulle believed that if he could not bring about French hegemony, no one after him would ever be able to accomplish it.

  1. Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Country File, Germany, vol. 8. Secret. Drafted by Kent and approved in the White House on June 10. The discussion took place during lunch. The source text is marked “Part 2 of 4.”↩
  2. Queen Elizabeth visited Germany May 18–28.↩