Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Eastern Europe; Finland; Greece; Turkey, Volume X, Part 2

56. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

Washington, November 6, 1958.

SUBJECT

• Political Discussion with Polish Leaders

PARTICIPANTS

• Mr. Boleslaw Jaszczuk, Deputy Chairman, Polish Planning Commission
• Mr. Franciszek Modrzewski, Polish Deputy Minister of Foreign Trade
• Mr. Romuald Spasowski, Polish Ambassador
• Dr. Tadeusz Lychowski, Polish Economic Minister
• Mr. Kohler, Deputy Assistant Secretary, EUR
• Mr. Colbert—EE
• Mr. Sherer—EE

Mr. Kohler opened the conversation by stating he realized that the two Ministers were very much interested in economics, especially in the subject of Polish association with the GATT. Although he could assure the Ministers that this question was being seriously considered by the Department, they would have an opportunity to go into the details of this subject in their meeting with Mr. Beale this afternoon.¹ Mr. Kohler then said that he thought this talk might focus more on political aspects and he welcomed this opportunity to speak as frankly with the Ministers as he does with the Polish Ambassador from time to time.

Mr. Kohler began the political discussion by stating that under our differing systems of government we were bound to have differing opinions about international affairs. He wished to emphasize that we have no objections to the Polish system as such. What concerns us the most is how to improve our relations on the basis of independent decisions. He then said that we have been concerned about some of the statements made by Mr. Gomulka and his party during their visit to the Soviet Union;² we do not mind differences of policy or opinion but we are bothered by assertions that ignore the facts. In illustration, he mentioned remarks by Gomulka and others about Quemoy and Matsu and said that the basic fact that must be remembered in this connection is that the Chinese Communists opened the bombardment on August 23 and that any appraisal of the situation cannot ignore this fact.³

With regard to Germany, Mr. Kohler said that we understand the Polish fear of Germany and recognize that Germany constitutes a special problem for Poland. We believe, however, that the facts are misrepresented and the U.S. is frequently falsely accused in propaganda campaigns generated in Moscow. He made special reference in this connection to the accusation that the U.S. is rearming the Bundeswehr with atomic weapons. We appreciate Poland’s concern for its security, and in this connection the Poles should understand the defensive nature of the NATO organization. Events since the close of World War II have forced us to develop a defensive deterrent. NATO is organized in such a way that it could never initiate aggressive war. The German Federal Republic, as a NATO member, is being furnished with modern arms, but the atomic components are in the custody of U.S. Forces in the German Federal Republic. This is another fact which, we hope, is well understood in Poland. It should also be realized that we have made, and continue to make, every effort to achieve a controlled and inspected disarmament. Our participation in the current Geneva talks on nuclear weapons tests and surprise attack⁴ demonstrates our interest in disarmament, but we believe that control and inspection are essential.

Mr. Jaszczuk thanked Mr. Kohler for the frank expression of his views and stated that he would like for a moment to discuss the German problem. Mr. Jaszczuk pointed out that history showed that Poland had been subjected several times to German aggression and that the world should expect that Poland would do its utmost to prevent a repetition of the devastation which had been caused in Poland by Germany so many times. Mr. Jaszczuk said that, in spite of certain internal political differences that are present in Poland today, and he emphasized that political differences do exist, he said that the Polish people were completely unified concerning the German problem and the western territories. He said that the Poles were confident that the juridical basis of the Oder-Neisse territories⁵ was firmly established and were resentful that this fact had not been acknowledged in the West.

Going on to the problem of the rearmament of the Bundeswehr, Mr. Jaszczuk said that the Polish Government does not doubt the predominant influence of the United States over West Germany today but the Poles are afraid that at some future date the Germans might take independent action. To forestall such independent action, Poland prefers to see Germany disarmed. Consequently, there are feelings of apprehension in Poland concerning our present assistance to West Germany and the Polish Government has attempted through the Rapacki Plan⁶ to prevent German rearmament.

Mr. Kohler replied that he understood the reasons for the anti-German feeling in Poland but urged the Poles to realize that the world situation has changed and that, in the future, local aggression will not be possible. No one country would suffer from World War III; all would suffer equally. Mr. Kohler argued that old hostilities can be overcome and reminded them that in 1812 the British had burned our White House. He also reminded his listeners that the present German Government has a broader base than any of its predecessors, that it has renounced any intention to resolve boundary problems by force, and that it has stated that it will not produce atomic weapons. Any fear that Germany will take independent aggressive action should be judged from the point of view that Germany is a NATO partner and, as such, could not take independent initiatives against Poland.

Ambassador Spasowski spoke at this point to say that he found this conversation most useful and hoped that, by such exchanges of opinion, the Department would realize that the present Polish Government is interested in helping to solve current world difficulties. The Ambassador stated that his Government believes it is in a unique position to do this and cited the recent modifications of the Rapacki Plan⁷ as an example of continuing Polish interest in bringing about a détente. He expressed the hope that the modifications in the Rapacki Plan would be studied carefully. Mr. Kohler replied that we recognize the sincerity behind Poland’s desire to ease tensions. With regard to the modifications of the Rapacki Plan, we have not seen a complete text but we will certainly study the modifications with the realization that they have been put forward sincerely. Mr. Kohler reiterated, however, that the concept of a limited security zone is not realistic in the era of IRBM’s and ICBM’s. The point of danger is not within the Rapacki Plan area. The Soviet Union believes the danger lies in Great Britain and in the United States. We believe the danger stems from the Soviet Union. The efforts being made at Geneva take into consideration these facts, and we hope the Polish Government will strongly support positions at Geneva which will reduce tensions on a global scale.

Mr. Jaszczuk returned to the problem of the western territories by stating that he had been a Polish delegate to the International Atomic Energy Conference⁸ where the West German delegation had displayed a map which failed to take into account Polish administration of the recovered territories. He related that, following a Polish protest, the map was removed but not corrected. He cited this as an example of West German failure to recognize the present status. He said that German propaganda attempts to prove that the western territories are being neglected by the Polish Government. He said, when speaking factually, it must be recognized that this propaganda is false and that the economic potential of the territories is being expanded rapidly, that they play a large part in Poland’s new five-year plan and that the largest electrical plant in all of Europe will be located there. He pointed out that more young workers live in the western territories than in any other part of Poland and that plants are being built there for them. He said that, although Poland and West Germany do not have diplomatic relations, there are exchanges of technical delegations and that invariably the Poles returning to Poland from West Germany speak of the growing German nationalism and German desire to recover what they consider their own lands. He said that on this visit when talking with American professors, he had learned that American universities possess a great deal of German propaganda claiming German ownership to the western territories.

Jaszczuk then spoke again of the Rapacki Plan and said that it was not the Soviet Union that would start a third war but rather Germany. He said, not only does history show this, but that economic and political conditions now existing in West Germany are conducive to the rise of another Hitler. Mr. Kohler asked why at a time of tremendous economic growth and prosperity they believed the rise of another Hitler was likely; Hitler had arisen at a time of acute economic crisis. Mr. Jaszczuk replied that the same people who helped Hitler are again occupying high positions, not only in the financial and economic fields, but in the political and military fields as well. Mr. Kohler again urged the Poles to realize conditions had changed and that old animosities should be forgotten, and reiterated his belief that the German problem should be placed in its proper world perspective.

Mr. Kohler concluded by stating that the Department was very happy to have been able to have the delegation in this country and he hoped there would be other opportunities to talk in this frank and friendly manner. Mr. Jaszczuk thanked Mr. Kohler for the cordial visit, again spoke of the very favorable impressions he had gained from his tour of the United States and expressed the hope that Polish-U.S. relations would continue to improve.

0. Source: Department of State, Central Files, 748.00/11–658. Confidential. Drafted and initialed by Albert W. Sherer and initialed by Kohler. At the invitation of the Department of State, a high-level Polish delegation visited the United States for 3 weeks beginning October 16. Documentation on the planning for this trip, which began in May, is Ibid., 033.4811.
1. See Document 57.
2. Gomulka visited the Soviet Union October 24–November 12. The purpose of the visit was to emphasize bloc solidarity and demonstrate harmony between Moscow and Warsaw. Both Gomulka and Khrushchev made numerous speeches during the 3-week visit. In his speeches, Gomulka went considerably beyond any previous public pronouncements he had made against the United States. For excerpts from the joint communiqué of November 10 issued by the Soviet Union and Poland and a report on the anti-American remarks made by Gomulka while in the Soviet Union, see The New York Times, November 12 and 14, 1958.
3. Reference is to the bombardment of the Quemoy and Little Quemoy Islands by the Chinese Communists on August 23.
4. Reference is to two conferences held in Geneva: The Conference on the Discontinuance of Nuclear Weapons Tests, held October 31–December 31, and the Conference of Allied and Communist experts on the prevention of surprise attack, held November 10–December 18.
5. See footnote 1, Document 50.
6. See footnote 5, Document 48.
7. Regarding the new version of the Rapacki Plan, see Part 1, Document 12.
8. The foundation conference of the International Atomic Energy Agency was held in Vienna October 1–23, 1957, and the second general conference of this Agency was held in Vienna September 22–October 4, 1958.