684A.85/11–1853
No. 733
Memorandum of Conversation, by the
Officer in Charge of Palestine-Israel-Jordan Affairs (Waller)
Subject:
- Relations Between Israel and Neighboring Arab States
Participants:
- Brigadier General Moshe Dayan, Deputy Chief of Staff, Israel Defense Forces
- Colonel Vivian Herzog, Israel Military Attaché
- NEA–Mr. Byroade
- NE-Mr. Waller
Mr. Byroade asked General Dayan to give his impression of Israel’s relations with neighboring Arab states and the General said he would be glad to do so country by country. With Egypt, the General [Page 1424] said, Israel has only minor troubles, almost all of which concern infiltration. He expressed the opinion that Egypt is not greatly interested in peace with Israel and that an agreement with the British would not necessarily cause the Egyptians to undertake a settlement of the problem of peace with Israel. He pointed out that Egypt has important internal problems and little to gain by peace with Israel. The General said his government is concerned by the possibilities of disorder among the 250,000 people in Gaza and suggested that the erection of some physical or technical obstacles opposite the inhabited areas along the border would go a long way toward controlling the situation. He thought a wire fence, perhaps in an open belt 100 feet or so wide and lighted, or even a minefield, would be effective whereas armed forces alone would not be sufficient to prevent illegal crossings. He believed Egypt would agree to the erection of such obstacles if they could be erected by the United Nations.
Mr. Byroade asked whether, in the General’s opinion, failure of the Anglo-Egyptian negotiations would result in guerrilla warfare against the British. If so, whether Egypt’s attacks on the British would be a danger to Israel. The General replied that, in the event of an Egyptian agreement with the British, Egypt would not necessarily endeavor to pursue a constructive course towards Israel for the reasons already enumerated.
With regard to Lebanon, the General said there are no questions worth mentioning.
Turning to Syria, there are only two problems, namely, the Demilitarized Zone and water. The most important of the two is water. So far as incidents go, they are fewer even than with Lebanon. When asked about the possibility of eliminating the Demilitarized Zone by negotiation, the General said that the Syrians want the border to be on the east water line of the Jordan River but Israel does not wish Syria to have direct access to the Jordan River. He said the Israel Government had offered Syria land and concessions elsewhere but the Syrians would not accept.
Turning the discussion to the Demilitarized Zone, Mr. Byroade said that Israel’s Banat Ya’qub project presents very serious difficulties. He thought the project would change the Demilitarized Zone and wondered why Israel felt Syrian agreement was not needed. He also wondered why the Syrian Government had not objected more strenuously to Israel’s claims of sovereignty over the Demilitarized Zone and to Israel’s taking over control of it. The General replied that Israel claims sovereignty only over Jewish lands in the Demilitarized Zone and that someone must keep the area alive. There are schools and villages which need many services, [Page 1425] including electricity, and Syria has never shown any interest in doing these things.
Mr. Byroade pointed out that if the Jordan River water is taken over by Israel and the Yarmuk River water is taken over by the Kingdom of Jordan neither party would derive as much benefit as from regional development. The General replied that he thought it would be a good solution as each country would get about half the water of the Jordan valley and that it would be better to have projects on a bilateral rather than a regional basis. Mr. Byroade said that our hope is that by regional economic development people in the area will begin to talk with each other and eventually this would lead to better relations for all. He pointed out that it would be very difficult for us to justify large sums of money for uneconomic projects. The General said that Syria’s claims of Jordan River water are not valid because Syria cannot use the water. In fact, Israel is the only country in a position to prevent the Jordan River water from being wasted.
General Dayan said that Israel’s problems with Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are minor compared with its problems with Jordan. Mr. Byroade agreed that the problem was a big one but said we felt that during the past few months Jordan has been doing an increasingly better job of keeping order. General Dayan expressed a contrary view. He said that there is considerable evidence of Jordan officers and police actually organizing bands to cross into Israel. He then referred to the suggestion he had made with regard to Israel’s border with Egypt concerning the erection of physical or technical obstacles. He pointed out that Israel’s border with Jordan is wide open and even armed forces cannot prevent crossings. In addition to the construction of obstacles, it would be helpful if some of the refugees could be withdrawn from the border.
Mr. Byroade asked whether, in General Dayan’s opinion, the Arab Legion commander had acted in good faith. General Dayan replied that whereas he had never met General Glubb he is of the opinion that General Glubb does not wish a conflict with Israel and he seems to be a straightforward man. General Glubb is in error, however, when he believes that the Arabs only cross the line in order to get to their property or to visit relatives. General Dayan repeated that a large part of the solution would be in the construction of obstacles, the removal of Arab refugees from the frontier areas and a better patrolling of the frontier. He said that if some such action is not taken crossings will continue. He felt that the local commanders’ agreement was of limited value and that the Jordanians have not been really cooperative. He said that often when Israel officers informed the Jordanians of the location of stolen property, the Jordanians replied that there was nothing they [Page 1426] could do about it. The General then added that “we send over Arabs from Israel to steal the property back again”. In concluding, he said that if it should develop that there is no prospect for peace for some time, Israel must make an attempt to seal its borders.
The discussion then turned to Mt. Scopus. Mr. Byroade said he was concerned at Israel’s defiance of the United Nations. He mentioned General Bennike’s attempt to inspect the installations on Mt. Scopus and the disregard of Bennike’s decision regarding the Banat Ya’qub project. He said that we cannot stand idly by and watch the United Nations machinery fall apart. He then said that we will support Israel in things in which we believe Israel to be right and that no matter what the General might hear to the contrary, we have no intention of endeavoring to win the friendship of the Arabs at the expense of Israel.