793.003/733
Memorandum by the Chief of the Division of Far Eastern Affairs (Hornbeck) of a Conversation With the Chinese Minister (C. C. Wu)
Dr. Wu referred to the proposal which he had made in his last preceding conversation with Mr. Hornbeck, with regard to the exclusion of a Greater Shanghai area, and that only, from the operation of provisions of the treaty on extraterritoriality, and he wished to know whether Mr. Hornbeck could give him an answer. Mr. Hornbeck said that he would prefer to refrain from discussion of excluded areas until the problems of text, upon which Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Weigh have been working, are disposed of, but that he could say, for the moment, that we adhere to the view which we have all along expressed, that the exclusion of areas at four ports is advisable and desirable; he said that we wish, as from the beginning, to make a treaty which will diminish rather than increase the difficulty of the many problems which are inherent in the great constant problem of contacts in China between foreigners and Chinese.
Dr. Wu said that he had heard “from a reliable source” that the British do not really consider it important to exclude any area other than one at Shanghai and that they are using the other three ports for bargaining purposes. He inquired whether Mr. Hornbeck had [Page 874] been informed on this point. Mr. Hornbeck said that, if such were the case, the British Government would not be likely so to inform either this Government or anybody else and that such a view, if advanced, must be somebody’s statement of opinion rather than an authoritative statement upon which reliance could be placed. He said that he could not imagine the British attaching no importance to what happened at Tientsin, Canton and Hankow. He said that we all know that there is such thing as bargaining—even in connection with conceding of points which ought not to be conceded, but that, quite aside from all such questions, the important thing is: what arrangements may reasonably be expected to improve the situation which is being dealt with? He said that, of all the arguments presented by Dr. Wu in their last conversation, the only one which seemed to him to carry weight in relation to the matter of four rather than one reserved areas was that the Chinese Government would be able to say to the Chinese people, on a basis of one rather than four, that it had scored a greater success in the negotiations. This, however, was a problem largely of how the matter might be presented by the Chinese Government. To him, the facts in the situation support overwhelmingly the opinion that there should be four reserved areas. Reverting to the question of procedure, he would suggest that the points on which Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Weigh have not yet agreed be considered by Dr. Wu, and Dr. Wu’s and his efforts be directed toward completion of the text with the exception of the article on reserved areas. Dr. Wu said that this would be agreeable to him.