Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States, 1931, The Far East, Volume III

793.94/2207¾

Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation⁸³

October 19, 1931, 3:15 p.m.

Drummond: Mr. Secretary, Lord Reading would like to speak to you.

Reading: Hello, Mr. Stimson, Reading speaking. Can you hear? Mr. Gilbert has just informed me of your instructions to him to withdraw from the sessions of the Council on the ground that the objective of his participation has now been reached. I do not wish to suggest that you withdraw your instructions but I am sure it will be regarded, whatever explanation would be given, as expressing definite disapproval of the discussions now proceeding to the extent that you will not even allow your representative to sit at the table in accordance with the terms of your acceptance of the invitation as publicly announced and the subsequent speeches. Above all, I do want to state I am afraid of its effect (I am speaking frankly. You don’t mind) of its effect upon the various countries and upon the rest of the representatives on the Council. It will, I fear, be disastrous (I cannot refrain from using strong terms) if after those most gracious terms of acceptance you will almost immediately thereafter withdraw so that the objective other than the Kellogg Pact cannot be reached: with the exception of the invocation of the Kellogg Pact which has since been done, nothing has yet been done except to attempt to draw up a resolution which both the Chinese and Japanese Governments will accept. That is what we are trying to do now. I have not dared to mention the matter to Briand or to any other member of the Council. The withdrawal would have the most serious effect upon Briand and may quite seriously bring about his downfall as Foreign Minister. It will be most dangerous you see. And of course the effect upon the disarmament conference which we are now discussing and making preparations for will be very serious and just now especially when my government as well as all others (connection interrupted). That is its possible effects upon the world’s financial and political situation.

Secretary: I know it is very difficult.

Reading: I assure you that it will have really disastrous effects. They will say you disapprove of the Council’s action. Whatever you may say they will think that the cooperation which is expressed in your letter includes the discussions of what we are going to do in the League with regard to Manchuria as mentioned in the public letter. Now it is all right about the Kellogg Pact but it is after all the other thing that is the difficult thing which we are now discussing and about which nothing has happened. You are taking quite a different stand and consequently seem to disapprove of what we are now doing and that will be regarded as the only reason why you would be withdrawing. Am I making myself clear?

Secretary: Can you hear me now. Did you not see the instructions under which Mr. Gilbert was authorized to join? Did you not hear the instructions under which he was authorized to participate in the meetings?

Reading: Yes.

Secretary: They were very clear in limiting his participation to the treatment of the Kellogg Pact.

Reading: Yes, but it was not only that you see. I have the letter here. I will just read it if I may.

Secretary: I have it here before me.

Reading: If you will look towards the last part of the first paragraph. It says there he is “to be in a position to consider with the Council the relationship between the provisions of the Pact of Paris and the present unfortunate situation in Manchuria, and at the same time to follow the deliberation of the Council with regard to other aspects of the problem with which it is now confronted.” You see that deals with two things.

Secretary: You have not got the last copy of his instructions—the second copy of the instructions.

Reading: I have not got that with me. At the moment, I heard it of course.

Secretary: In the light of what occurred when the Japanese made a particular issue with this Government I, for the purpose of clarifying those instructions, sent another set. The situation was changed when the Japanese made their special issue with this Government by objecting to the seating of Gilbert and also by the announcement of their Foreign Office in Tokyo. We then sent instructions to Gilbert clarifying the former ones a little, so as to make it clearer that he was limited only to participation.

Reading: That is all he is doing.

Secretary: You have finished the Kellogg Pact matter have you not?

Reading: The Kellogg Pact. Yes, but we have only finished the first part of the discussions for which he was desired. We have done that but of course the other part of it is the thing we are now engaged in. If he withdraws now, having announced that he was there for the Government of the United States to sit in the deliberations of the Council with regard to other aspects of the problems arising because of this unfortunate situation in Manchuria with which it is now confronted, that is not as we understood his participation.

Secretary: Lord Reading, I have not got here before me the two papers but the situation must have been made clear to you that his only participation was to be in regard to the Pact of Paris. In all other matters he was to be merely an observer and that part was put in for the purpose because we did not know how long the sessions of the Council would last before the Pact of Paris was finished. Now you have embarked on a very long series of negotiations which do not relate to that.

Reading: We are at the present moment in long series, trying to arrive at something to which they will agree. If we can get the two governments to agree now to an announcement.

Secretary: That may take some time in working out.

Reading: We haven’t come to a conclusion. We haven’t even got to that yet we are just still discussing it. We hope to get it through within the next 48 hours but I cannot tell.

Secretary: I am going to be just as frank with you as you have been with me. I have read your new resolution and I think it is going to take you a long time to get through that. Unless it is very materially modified.

Reading: What we are trying to do here is to work out their facts and see what modifications can be accepted that is what we are discussing with them.

Secretary: The whole situation seems to me to have been very materially modified by the very unexpected attitude Japan has taken towards American participation, the unexpected objection that Japan has made to our sitting with you at all.

Reading: Who the Japanese?

Secretary: Yes. I do not want this whole situation to be confused so as to inflame the Japanese and thereby protract peace. They have taken a very narrow position but it is one out of which a great deal of dust can be raised in the newspapers at large, both in Japan and elsewhere. The objection which Japan has made to American participation has created a new issue which bids fair greatly to delay and make more difficult the final solution if anything is done to aggravate it, and I am very much afraid that if Mr. Gilbert continues to sit in sessions of the Council which are clearly not devoted to the matter for which we authorized his participation the Japanese will jump to the conclusion that we sought to get in there in order to push you along to more vigorous action against them, if you see what I mean. They will think we have some ulterior motive against them. I don’t know whether you have seen the news from Tokyo? It indicates rather an unpleasant attitude towards this government—singling us out. There has thus been created an issue between Japan and America. I think it is not the part of wisdom to do anything which will allow them to accentuate that.

Reading: We have accepted that situation and they are willing and say so.

Stimson: You have not said so publicly and they have not said so publicly. Let me make [it] clear to you. I told Gilbert this morning that he was at once to withdraw from the secret sessions where he is now sitting merely as an observer—the sessions at which Japan and China were not participating. If Gilbert goes to meetings which are secret and in which Japan is not represented and China not represented, it will undoubtedly lead to suspicion in Tokyo. It will undoubtedly give a most suspicious look to the case, a most suspicious appearance in the minds of the Japanese to have Gilbert continue going to meetings which no longer have anything to do with the Kellogg Pact and which are secret meetings at which Japan is not represented.

Reading: Well, but you know, of course, it would be unfortunate if it had to happen but how would it be if he attended the one tomorrow. I think at most it would be a session in the morning in which we want to hear the result of certain interviews today between the President and Japan and China and then after that if you don’t want him to attend the secret sessions they could be so arranged—what we will do—we should have a day in order to do that. We should end our secret session.

Secretary: It would not do for us to state in the same way that he was attending any secret sessions because some inferences would be drawn.

Reading: I quite follow your point of view. In order to meet it as regards the secret sessions—What I was suggesting to you was to let him attend the meeting tomorrow. He will take no part and then not attend any further secret meetings. After that I think what will be necessary, what I am myself very anxious we should have is a public session and then from that moment we won’t have any more secret sessions.

Secretary: Of course that will be commented upon.

Reading: But it won’t be so important. It won’t be so much noticed if it is not done suddenly like a withdrawal tomorrow morning. If he can go and attend that and then if we do not have any further secret sessions until after the public meeting and then after that public meeting he can drop out the secret sessions altogether. No announcement need be made to that effect; simply he will not be sitting at the secret sessions.

Secretary: I have already authorized him to attend the public session tomorrow’ at which I understand the Japanese are going to withdraw their objection or to say their objection was purely on juridical grounds and Gilbert is to make a reply to that. It has been my view and still is that that offers the best time to declare that the Kellogg Pact work is finished (I mean the Pact of Paris), and to give Mr. Gilbert an opportunity to say that that being so he will attend no more meetings unless you desire to consult with him or to consult with this country on some other matter on which we are directly concerned. You see we have got to look out also for our future steps in this matter in the light of American public opinion. American public opinion has been quite alarmed at the thought that we were going further than was warranted by our treaties. They are not altogether reassured of the language of the authority which has been published here which is about as clear as the English language could make it.

It is because I am so anxious that nothing shall be done to undo the measure of cooperation which I have found possible thus far and that we shall not excite adverse public opinion here which would make such action impossible in the future, that I have been anxious to make it perfectly clear that we are cooperating with you only on matters in which we had a business to cooperate, namely, matters to which we were parties by treaty. Do I make myself clear? Now you are going on into the consideration of the resolution of September 30th or rather a follow-up resolution to that resolution, a matter which you carried on under the League of Nations covenant and without our participation then, and there is the American man in the street to consider, who will say there is no more reason for Mr. Gilbert to participate now than there was when the original resolution of September 30 was made. So I thought that was the natural place for him to withdraw, remaining only in reserve. He will be available for consultation in case a matter comes up again which is directly in line with this country’s obligations and duties.

Reading: Very well.

Secretary: Do you not see that so long as he is going in and out of the council chamber it makes two kinds of objections. First, that he is doing more than our treaty duties call for and second that he is really the embodiment of this country’s hostility towards Japan. I want to show two things. I want to show that we are not meddling either beyond our own obligations recognized here in America or above all beyond what we are entitled to directly with Japan, and there is a very strong feeling evidently in Tokyo that it is we who are trying to get Japan out of Manchuria. That I will have to look out for, because it will delay peace throughout the world. It will block what you are doing. It will make your task more hard. It does not mean that I will not myself keep on in the same line as before and it does not mean that you cannot call Gilbert whenever a matter comes up which will be recognized as directly concerned with what he has already been doing.

Reading: What I can’t quite follow is this—I am not hearing very well. He came in under the League invitation and under the letter on your behalf with regard to the Pact of Paris to follow the deliberations of the council with regard to the other aspects of the problem on which action was required by the council. The Second is now going on and deliberations are proceeding. All he is doing is following the deliberations of the council with regard to these other aspects of the problem. If he withdraws from that objective—there are really two: one is the Pact of Paris and the other the other aspects of the problem with which the Council is confronted—there will be great difficulty you see. Certainly nobody at the council was thinking he was being limited to the Pact of Paris because in the letter of the President to Mr. Briand both those matters were referred to and he was invited and accepted in your name to follow the deliberations, not to take part in them of course but merely to hear and observe. That is quite understood. It was with regard to both that he was welcomed.

Secretary: That is one of the difficulties in handling a matter so far away. As a matter of fact I did not see the answer or the invitation until after they had been delivered but here is the instruction under which Mr. Gilbert was acting and to which I alluded. It will make clear to you my standpoint here and this of course is in the light of not only the attitude of the Department of State but the general opinion of this country. My language when I authorized him was as follows: “You are authorized to participate in the discussions of the Council when they relate to the possible application of the Kellogg-Briand Pact, to which treaty the United States is a party. You are expected to report the result of such discussions to the Department for its determination as to possible action. If you are present at the discussion of any other aspect of the Chinese-Japanese dispute, it must be only as observer and auditor.”

That represents the way in which my mind projected itself into this matter.

Reading: I think that is as we understood it.

Secretary: But when a situation arises where the Kellogg-Briand Pact is finished and where there seems to be very grave danger that participation, particularly in secret meetings, may make the other part of it where we wanted to help you more difficult instead of easier and where there is grave danger of being misunderstood by the Japanese nation I thought it was the part of wisdom for him at the next convenient opportunity to make a public statement that the Kellogg Pact having been finished, he would hold himself in reserve and would not attend any further meetings until or unless he was called for consultation upon some matters to which our treaties related and I did not see how that could possibly embarrass you. My last purpose in the world is to embarrass you. It is the last thing in the world that I want to do—embarrass you in your effort, and I was afraid that his remaining there, particularly in secret meetings, would be of course a source of great embarrassment and great danger. The most important part is the secret meetings. If it is going to be a very great embarrassment for you to have him stay away from public meetings where he can be recognized only as an observer and where everybody knows that he is not pulling wires against Japan, I will reconsider that and think it over. But I do not want him to go to any further secret meetings now that the Kellogg Pact is over.

Reading: If you will let him go tomorrow, I quite appreciate your view of course with regard to the other but you see what I am most anxious about is a public discussion of his having been withdrawn from the secret sessions while everyone is following them. What I was suggesting was that if you would allow him to attend, as he has done today the meeting tomorrow, then I would suggest that the difference of one day won’t really make a very serious difference. If he does that then after that we will have a public meeting which he attends as only an observer and will continue to attend publicly as auditor and observer. Of course we quite appreciate and understand that you do not wish him to attend any secret meetings but I would suggest that nothing be said about your instructions on these meetings. Of course we shall be bound by them. He would not be called in any further secret meetings, but I am anxious that there should be no comment on it.

Secretary: I do not intend to comment on it provided we can get him out of danger. When would the next public meeting take place?

Reading: I think it must take place certainly within the next 48 hours. Perhaps less.

Secretary: Can you not have it tomorrow? I do not want Gilbert to attend any more secret meetings if possible and if you have got to have him at one—not more than one.

Reading: All I ask is that you will be good enough to let him attend the one which is already called for tomorrow.

Secretary: Is that a secret meeting?

Reading: Yes, that is a secret meeting. What I was suggesting to you is that there would be a public meeting after that and then that he should not attend any more secret meetings at all but would merely attend the public meetings as auditor and observer. If he attends the secret sessions in the morning, it will be only following out what he has done today. If he does not, this will have created a situation which will become most serious. That is the only reason I am calling—just with reference to tomorrow’s meeting.

Secretary: I do not want to cause that.

Reading: I beg you not to withdraw him yet. The effect on the French situation would be more serious even more than on ours but it would be very embarrassing to all. I am trying to explain it as I think I understand the situation that I was describing to you.

Secretary: One further thing, Lord Reading, you have got to protect me throughout. If I protect you, you must protect me. When he does attend those public meetings after the Kellogg Pact matter is over and after his interchange of reconciliation with the Japanese is over, he must attend purely as an observer. I think it would make it much easier for us and make our position clear if he took the position which observers have taken, rather than a seat among the members of the Council.

Reading: We have always understood that you know.

Secretary: I am not familiar with the physical surroundings in the Council room but the newspapers have represented Gilbert as having been given a seat among the members of the Council and that has been played up everywhere as if he had been made a member of the Council.

Reading: It was a distinction most deliberately drawn. He did not sit with members of Council as a member as that would have implied unanimity.

Secretary: What I am suggesting now is that the physical surroundings in the room be altered so as to conform to the actual legal facts as to his constitutional attendance.

Reading: I see what you mean. That is easily done.

Secretary: Just let me get this clear. He has been sitting at the Council table so long as you were considering the Kellogg Pact and so long as he was in the category of the first part of my authority which I gave him. Now that is over and if any more public meetings take place he is merely there as an observer. Can you not do something which will make this physically apparent. Do you understand that?

Reading: I don’t understand the last part.

Secretary: When he was deliberating with you on the Kellogg Pact, you with great formality gave him a position at your own table. I do not understand that the ordinary observers either from our country or other countries who have in the past attended the meetings of the Council have been given such a conspicuous position. I suggest therefore, as soon as the Kellogg Pact, the Pact of Paris, is formally disposed of, that Mr. Gilbert, while he may remain in the room in the public session, shall take the ordinary position or the ordinary chair of an observer.

Reading: Yes, I see what you mean.

Secretary: That will disarm a great deal of suspicion. It seems a little thing, but the Japanese objection has made everybody think that Gilbert had become a member of the Council. They did not read your decision. They read only the basis of the Japanese objection. That not only reacts badly in Japan but reacts very badly in America and I am trying to kill those two birds with one stone. I am willing to compromise with you in that way for the present and, until further advised Gilbert may go for one more secret meeting. Then he can attend the public meeting where the Japanese statement will be made and his response will be made. That involves his making a little speech. That however will terminate his service under the Pact of Paris and while he need not withdraw altogether from the attendance, he can then subside back into the position of an observer which is strictly in accordance with the way in which he came in and he will also be in a position where he can follow what you are doing, if you desire that, provided it is in public session.

Reading: I want to see if I have it. You would allow him to attend one more secret meeting, and only the one tomorrow; then after that he would attend the public sessions where he is to make his answer and then after that sitting take the position he had the other day not at the council table but as an observer. The only observation upon that which I would like to make is that would it not be sufficient at the meeting, at which statement is made by the Japanese and at which he makes his answer, that he takes no further part at the end of table and that hereafter if you wish it he should not sit at the table but have his chair at the table as an observer. The reason is that I am particularly anxious for the same reason as already explained that he should not have to change his position at the same meeting.

Secretary: All right I will accept that.

Reading: Then he will withdraw.

Secretary: I will accept your suggestion that he retain his position during the ceremony of that public meeting but at the next public meeting he will go to the new position. You understand, I hope, that I have no desire to embarrass you. I am only trying to protect you as well as myself.

Reading: Of course I feel the reaction[s] which would take place in America as you have pointed out to me. I am inclined to point out what they have been over here.

Secretary: The reactions which have taken place in America have been based upon reactions which have taken place in Japan and I think it would be very dangerous to the business which we all have in view to feed any more fuel to that flame.

Reading: We have been deliberating in these secret sessions for we did not want them to be put in a difficult situation publicly. We shall have to have a public meeting and it must take place certainly within 48 hours, where they must state their position in public. This cannot go on forever.

Secretary: I understand. My own opinion is that the great effect of the solidarity of all the nations of the world in favor of peace in Manchuria has already been accomplished by our original action.

Reading: I do not want to change it I assure you, but over here in Europe your withdrawal would be taken as nothing else but disapproving of what we are doing.

Secretary: We certainly do not disapprove and we do not want to be mistaken on that.

Reading: There are difficulties in our position here in meeting your views which I would like of course to meet.

Secretary: But apart from that I want to follow in with your views. I readily recognize that you are trying to follow in with mine. We will go ahead on that basis.

Reading: Mr. Secretary, may I inform Mr. Gilbert or shall he hear it from you.

Secretary: Tell him of our conversation but I will follow it up with a cable to him direct.

Reading: I am sorry to have troubled you. You understand I had to. If I can be of any use in any way you have only to let me know.

83. Between Mr. Stimson in Washington and Lord Reading, British representative on the League of Nations Council, in Geneva, October 19, 1931, 3:15 p.m.