793.94/2207½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation80
Secretary: Mr. Gilbert? Has any invocation been sent to the United States by France on behalf of the Five Powers?
Gilbert: Yes, sir. I understand so.
[Page 242]Secretary: It has not been received yet. They are intending to send one are they? Do they intend to send a formal notice to us?
Gilbert: Absolutely. The Foreign Ministers of France, Great Britain and Italy met on Saturday night and arranged at that time to send a notification to all signatories, of which Washington was one.
Secretary; Tell them it has not been received and verify it, will you?
Gilbert: I will verify it at once. I understood it is going to all signatories. They wanted to place the United States in a special position, but I said no—send it to Washington as just one of the signatories.
Secretary: We are holding back our note until we get it. Our note ought to go at once—today. If it has not been done, you look it up. Here is point No. 2. I am sending you instructions today81 that in view of the fact that the Kellogg Pact matter seems to be disposed of, we think that it is wise for you to withdraw from the meetings. They are now taking up matters which belong peculiarly to the League and we all think here that in view of that fact and in view of present tension with Japan it would be better for you to withdraw. You will receive notice to do that, by cable. It has been sent now. Of course, make your position clear that you stand ready and available for consultation at any time there is need of it; but your presence there in case they should discuss other matters under the League covenant alone is open to misconstruction both here and in Japan. Do you understand?
Gilbert: I understand perfectly. I would like to say something. The Japanese came to see me today and told me they had prepared a statement which the Japanese wish to make at the opening of the next public meeting of the Council, in which they wish to say that their objection to the United States was entirely on juridical grounds. I prepared a brief reply. Briand wished them to say something at the Council of that sort favorable to the United States to relieve the tension. It was also arranged by Lord Reading. They are very anxious that that statement on the part of the Japanese should be made public and that I should make a reply.
Secretary: What kind of a reply?
Gilbert: It would seem most unfortunate for me to withdraw before the Japanese have had the opportunity to say that.
Secretary: What do you propose to reply?
Gilbert: I have the statement here. I will read you the Japanese statement and my reply.
Secretary: Read me your statement.
Gilbert: “I have heard with deep gratification what the representative of Japan has said, and I wish to assure him that I heartily appreciate [Page 243] the spirit in which he has spoken. I have never had any thought of attributing this decision in this matter to other than juridical considerations, but it gives me great pleasure to be able to hear him say this himself, and to reassure him that on my part they may have no fear of my interpreting his attitude in any other light. The sentiments he has expressed as to the friendship and amity between our countries are cordially reciprocated. The long period of friendship between our people and the people of Japan is among the happiest stages in our history. It is furtherest from our minds that that record will ever be broken.”
Secretary: That is the end of the statement? That is all right. I am very glad to have you stay until that is done, provided it is done right off.
Gilbert: I cannot say when the next meeting is to be held. Briand and Reading have all worked on the Japanese very hard to get them to make the statement.
Secretary: Let them say it before they get into the other matters. I will tell you what I am afraid of. The resolution which they are working on now contains certain matters which in my opinion will probably not be adopted by the Japanese and will probably lead to a new deadlock.
Gilbert: I will tell you just what is happening here. They have no intention at the present time of submitting a resolution which will not be adopted by the Japanese. The resolution which they are working on, of which I am now sending you various amendments, is merely a project developed in the private meetings, by Briand and Reading and sometimes Grandi. Briand is all the time working with the Japanese and the Chinese to get their acceptance of various elements and work out a compromise. There is no intention now of any kind to present a resolution which would be in the form of a public ultimatum for the acceptance of Japan and China. It is all being worked out in private conversations to reach a possible solution and that is the plan they are working on now. They have private meetings of the Council in which the policy of proposed projects is discussed. Briand works on the Chinese and Japanese and comes back and reports the results, and is going on in that way until something is reached which can be accepted in public.
Secretary: I understand, and I am very glad to hear it. I want you to know my views. That is going to take a long time. They are not going to accomplish a resolution which will be acceptable to both the Chinese and Japanese without long and laborious negotiations. In the meanwhile they are attending to something which relates purely to the League of Nations and not to the Kellogg Pact and it is something which conceivably may make a deadlock or renew trouble at any time in which Japan may be strongly arrayed against the League. [Page 244] You are in there simply to handle the Kellogg Pact matter and by staying in while this resolution is being argued and worked out, you run the risk of being apparently dragged into a conflict between the League and Japan. I want you to arrange with the League at once, talking with Reading, Briand and Grandi, so that they can see that we must make clear here the fact that your sitting in there has been, as we have always stated, connected solely with the Kellogg Pact. And also for these other reasons it is quite undesirable that you should remain there, because it may bring up again the issue between America and Japan. Therefore, they ought to be able to arrange a brief public meeting at which this Japanese statement could be made. The quicker that statement is made the better will be its effect both here and in Japan, while if it is delayed during long negotiations in secret there will be all kinds of rumors and guesswork in the press concerning the issue between Japan and America. If they would hold a very brief public meeting, even if only for a few minutes, to dispose of this matter, that would do more to end the trouble which the press is speculating about now, namely, trouble between America and Japan, than anything else, and then it would leave you free to get out and clear the situation in that way, while they go on working and knowing all the time that we are ready to consult again whenever it seems appropriate to do so and can always consult informally with you or with me here so long as you remain in Geneva. It would very much clear the air from a general standpoint if those speeches of the Japanese representative and yourself were made right off and the atmosphere cleared up. Then you could withdraw on the ground that the function for which you were admitted publicly to the League was over, remaining standing on the sidelines ready for consultation in case you were needed. I want you to do that and I shall send you a cable confirming this.
Gilbert: Mr. Secretary, if I withdraw, then I would like to have a statement to make at the time of my withdrawal.
Secretary: You will find enough material to make this statement in my cable which has already gone to you.
Gilbert: Shall I in any way discuss the effect of this withdrawal with Lord Reading before I actually do it.
Secretary: Yes. Certainly you want to notify your fellow members, like Reading and Briand, that you are going to do this.
Gilbert: They may have various ideas of their own on the international effect of it.
Secretary: I cannot help that. We must be the judge of that here. I want you to be courteous to them and hear them, but unless there is something very astonishing, I want you to go ahead and withdraw after the public meeting.
[Page 245]Gilbert: There is only one point. May I make it? I am afraid it will be impossible for me to ask them to have a special public meeting for that purpose as they are very anxious at the next public meeting, which I think will be tomorrow or next day at the latest, to indicate to the world that they have moved a little ahead in this matter. I feel that it will be asking too much of them to raise public opinion by the announcement of a public meeting and then have nothing other happen than my withdrawal. If that could be accompanied by something else to present to the world, it would be very much better.
Secretary: Is it not possible to have the statement of the Japanese representative and your reply given out to the press without having a public meeting?
Gilbert: I do not know. They worked this up with great difficulty with Tokyo and in that way in stages, feeling this would relieve tension.
Secretary: Read the statement of the Japanese representative. I am afraid there will be an indefinite delay and I am sure they propose to present certain things in their present resolution which will take a lot of time.
Gilbert: I do not think the next meeting will be under that resolution necessarily. Their plan was to have it at a certain point to ask Japan and China what they had done under the commitments already given. I am afraid they cannot defer that more than another day. I feel that it would be too much to ask in view of the way the League feels about this entire matter and the rather great difficulties they have experienced. It would be better if I could allow them that much time. I am very sorry. Of course I will carry out any instructions naturally, but I am presenting the way it looks to me. If I could withdraw at a natural meeting it would be better. Otherwise it would look as if Japan had demanded that I withdraw.
Secretary: I do not want that to occur. Suppose you read me the Japanese statement.
Gilbert: It is purely on juridical grounds. He is speaking to members of the Council. “I raised the objection the other day, from a constitutional point of view, to inviting a representative of a non-member state to participate in the deliberations of the Council.…82 They still maintain the legal stand I took on that occasion, but now that the representative of the United States sits at this table, I am glad to assure him and the members of the Council that it is the traditional policy of my country to promote friendship and amity with the United States, and both the Government and the people [Page 246] of Japan are determined to live in peace and good will with that country by following this policy consistently at all times.”
Secretary: Let me ask you a question. In these secret meetings which are going on now, are you sitting?
Gilbert: Yes, sir.
Secretary: Why is that necessary?
Gilbert: I can withdraw if you desire.
Secretary: That might be the solution of it. If they would have the public meeting within a day or two and if you will withdraw from going to the secret meetings and let that leak out in the press there, then it will not be necessary to make a formal withdrawal. But I do not want you to be sitting in at the meetings in which this resolution and matters of that sort under the League covenant are being taken up and I want it to be known that you are not.
Gilbert: I was going to suggest something of that sort. Then I will not go to the meeting today or tomorrow. I will arrange my liaison to get the information anyway.
Secretary: Of course you will get that from the representatives.
Gilbert: The reason I have sat at the secret meetings was because we accepted an invitation to be an auditor and the belief was that at any meeting of the Council I would continue to be an auditor and observer.
Secretary: There is no need of doing that. I do not think it is necessary. You can explain the situation to Briand, Reading and Grandi, so that there will be no misunderstanding.
Gilbert: Then I will go into the next public meeting anyway.
Secretary: Yes, you can go into the next public meeting, that is, if it is not postponed too long.
Gilbert: And that would be the last meeting?
Secretary: Yes, and it would be my preference that they should take up your and the Japanese representative’s statements in the very beginning, before they take up the question of what reports are made under their own resolution of September 30th. That will allow you to retire gracefully before they take up those other matters in public. Is that clear?
Gilbert: Yes, sir. I will talk with Lord Reading and of course I will tell him what I will do. If he has any comment which is really pertinent, I shall let you have the benefit of it.
Secretary: But in the meantime, I expect you not to attend the secret meetings, and let this leak out to the press.
Gilbert: And not make a statement that I am not attending.
Secretary: Let your colleagues know what the grounds are. It is clear to us here that you have attended to the matter which it was your purpose to participate in, and that is over. What they are [Page 247] working on now are matters which in no way relate to the Kellogg Pact. Unfortunately an issue between Japan and America in the press has arisen and it is important that no color should be given to the idea that America is participating in secret meetings aimed against Japan.
Gilbert: I understand, sir.
Secretary: And therefore you will stay away.
Gilbert: I understand perfectly, and I will then, after talking to Lord Reading, formulate the most graceful way of doing this. If he has any suggestions to make which will make it as easy as possible for them.
Secretary: I am very anxious to make it easy for them and they must know, as you will see from my telegram, that we will continue to cooperate with them.
Gilbert: I understand.
Secretary: But I do not want to have the danger of the misunderstanding in Japan, as well as in this country, which would arise from your participating in secret meetings on these other matters.
Gilbert: I have never spoken a word at the meetings.
Secretary: I know. I have not the slightest suspicion of you and have nothing but congratulations for the way you have handled this. But I want to protect you against any such unfortunate suspicions.
Gilbert: Thank you, sir. If I could discuss this frankly and confidentially with Lord Reading and he has any really pertinent thing to add, I will let you know at once.
Secretary: Yes, keep me posted just as fully as you can.
Gilbert: I cannot go so far as to ask them to have a special public meeting. It would have a very bad appearance before the public.
Secretary: I do not ask that, as long as you do not go to the other meetings and the public meeting is not too long deferred.
Gilbert: I think that is the best way—if I do not attend the secret meetings but merely disappear. Are you satisfied with the action on the Kellogg Pact here? As far as the action taken here goes, it was just as you wanted I think. From the technical point of view there was one difficulty that had to be straightened out. They felt that Washington being the depository of the Pact, we were the nation which would have to send out the notifications, and I had to take my own responsibility to say that the states initiating the action were the proper ones to notify the other signatories.
Secretary: You did that very well indeed.
Gilbert: The fact that we had invoked the Pact once ourselves and were at the same time the depository state did not create a general precedent, and I took the responsibility of saying that those were your views. Was that satisfactory?
[Page 248]Secretary: You did very well. I am very much gratified.
Gilbert: Thank you, sir. I will see Lord Reading at the first opportunity.
Secretary: You can tell Reading and the others that the form in which the invocation of the Kellogg Pact took place was exactly the way in which I think it was wisest to do it and it accorded fully with my views.
Gilbert: I will take this matter up at once.