793.94/2180½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation63
Everett:64 This is Mr. Everett, Mr. Secretary.
Secretary: Yes, Mr. Everett.
Everett: Mr. Gilbert is here now—Just a moment.
Secretary: I tried to get you before you went into the meeting because I was a little worried.
Gilbert: It was just starting and I could do nothing but go in.
Secretary: My reason was I was a little worried by your statement in your cable—that you had changed your introductory statement.65 I am troubled about that. What did you change?
Gilbert: I can read it. I am talking at the League of Nations Secretariat. I would like to tell you that—I am talking from a little outside office—the meeting has just concluded this moment. I am [Page 204] getting my speech out of an envelope that is here—I will have it in a moment.
Secretary: I want to express the hope that you did not leave out any part that I gave you.
Gilbert: You sent me a slight change in my instructions. I will read you what I have said.
[Here follows text as quoted in telegram No. 208, October 16, 5 p.m., printed on page 209.]
Gilbert: All the way through I stated and then reiterated that we undertook nothing under the Covenant of the League of Nations.
Secretary: That’s all right—you have relieved my anxiety—I was not sure.
Gilbert: Your message came somewhat garbled and I worked it out as best I could—in line with certain things I knew Briand was going to say.
Secretary: I think you have done very well—much obliged to you for telephoning it to me. You will keep us posted just as much as you can every day and they will understand that we need to have that done. I take it that the League will help in accommodating you by giving time for you to report to us.
Gilbert: They will do their best. We will ask for meetings, you know.
Secretary: One thing more—the situation here in the press has been pretty tense and so to make your instructions so perfectly clear to the press, I have sent you today a new cable66 giving you the same instructions but in a little clearer language, so do not give out your instructions until you get ours. We have given them out here. I don’t think it is necessary for you to give them out at all.
Gilbert: I do not think it is—I have kept away from the Secretariat because it seemed more delicate—was the question of inviting the United States—was before the Council,—nor have I permitted any member of my staff to be there. In my opinion I felt it best not to sit in and listen to a debate of that character—kept away from the press for the same reason only saying we have not been invited.
Secretary: Very wise step to take.
Gilbert: Following what I had to say, all of their representatives with the exception of two Powers of Latin America, Guatemala and Panama, made polite statements. I have to analyze the statements to see exactly what they meant. In spirit they concurred with what I have said. Do you wish me to go any further here? I shall go over those statements by those representatives and cable you. Is that answer what you hoped to have happen or do you expect further developments here?
[Page 205]Secretary: I expect further developments there. We have no plan to send you. I want you now to seek not to push yourself into the foreground. It would be well to keep modestly in the background.
Gilbert: I would like to get one or two things clear if I may. Of course there is the pact. Do you expect it to be invoked in Geneva?
Secretary: If it is invoked at all, it should be invoked only at the instance of the Powers who are assembled in Geneva.
Gilbert: I see. I don’t know what they will do.
Secretary: I don’t want them to pass it back to us.
Gilbert: They answered what I had to say and made no commitments even by suggestion.
Secretary: I do not want to have them send the initiative back here to Washington as to the invocation of the pact. Do you understand me?
Gilbert: I did not get it—I am sorry.
Secretary: If the Kellogg Pact is to be invoked, that must be done in Geneva and the communications to the other Kellogg Pact signatories must be sent from Geneva. Do you understand?
Gilbert: I understand there is some difficulty in their minds as I understand them and it is that of course it could not be done by an action of the Council.
Secretary: That is true.
Gilbert: And it would have to be done outside.
Secretary: It is much easier to hold such an outside meeting there in Geneva where they are all present than it would be in Washington.
Gilbert: I can’t say whether they will do that or not.
Secretary: I want you to insist on it.
Gilbert: You wish me to insist on it?
Secretary: Yes.
Gilbert: I will.
Secretary: It must not be sent back here.
Gilbert: I don’t know. They have not been at all responsive and quite evasive.
Secretary: Please listen here exactly and take these instructions. The situation which has been made by the Japanese objection makes it doubly important that the initiative should not be taken here.
Gilbert: I understand that perfectly.
Secretary: You must not under any circumstances allow them to get under way in sending it to us.
Gilbert: I know. I will not do that. My question is whether they will do it themselves or not. I see no indications of it.
Secretary: If they are not hearty enough or eager enough about the invocation of the pact to do it themselves, then it had better not be invoked at all.
[Page 206]Gilbert: I understand. If they are not hearty enough about the invocation of the pact it had better not be invoked at all.
Secretary: We do not ask to have it invoked.
Gilbert: Could you not talk with the representatives in Washington of the Powers?
Secretary: We do not want it invoked by the representatives of the Powers here.
Gilbert: Can you not talk with the British and French representatives and others of your desires in the premises?
Secretary: I will if necessary, but I want it done primarily by you.
Gilbert: Yes Sir, but it would very much reinforce it if you would say it. There has been no hearty concurrence. They made a great many in their speeches which I have not analyzed. They are very solicitous, but have made no suggestion of taking any definite action of invocation—not in the slightest.
Secretary: The incidents which took place yesterday in the objection of Japan to our coming in would be very disastrous. If we should take over the invocation of the pact here, Japan would believe that we have gone into it to do that very thing instead of on the invitation of the League. She would resent it and believe that we have something behind our actions and it would set back the cause of the settlement of this thing very much. The people at Geneva must understand that. Japan’s action in objecting to our sitting with the League has very much changed the situation and it has made it necessary to proceed with the utmost delicacy so far as we are concerned.
Gilbert: I realize that.
Secretary: And the most we can do now is to keep in the background and not give any occasion for Japan to feel that we are seeking to guide the whole thing.
Gilbert: The Japanese called on me today and wished me to say that of course their objection had been based purely on juridical grounds; they were very sorry they had to take that position.
Secretary: You know that is nonsense.
Gilbert: He said their action was in no way directed against the United States and they would be very happy to have us there.
Secretary: That is eye-wash.
Gilbert: I know.
Secretary: You must not under any circumstances let the members of the Council send the question of the Kellogg Pact here for organization and invocation.
Gilbert: Yes I understand.
Secretary: I am sure Mr. Briand will see that.
Gilbert: But if you take it up in Washington with the representatives there and reinforce it as soon as possible it would make a very great difference.
[Page 207]Secretary: You mean it would make a bad difference?
Gilbert: No. Could you not do it confidentially with the British and French?
Secretary: Get that out of your head. We won’t do it at all. It would be the worst thing in the world.
Gilbert: I thought perhaps they would do it for you.
Secretary: No. That would put the name of Washington to it. It must be done in Geneva.
Gilbert: I thought that the British Ambassador would protect your confidence in that.
Secretary: No, he cannot do it here. You absolutely must stand unyielding and absolutely staunch on that question. Rather than do that, we would give up the question of invoking the pact.
Gilbert: I will do the best I can here.
Secretary: You had better talk to Mr. Briand at once about that and you had better talk to the British Ambassador and tell them of this talk with me; that if any such attempt as that was made, we would feel that it was better to give up the invocation of the pact altogether. It would destroy the whole purpose and would produce an issue with Japan which would make difficult the whole settlement.
Gilbert: I understand perfectly. I shall discuss that with Briand and Lord Reading. And of course Madariaga is very anxious to have that happen here. Madariaga, the Spanish Ambassador, is the only one who has expressed to me the anxiety of the Powers here to take that action. The others have all been evasive.
Secretary: There was no reason for coming into this Geneva meeting at all except to give them a chance to consult and carry on there and if they send it back here, there is no reason for you to be in the conference.
Gilbert: I understand.
Secretary: You have got to stand absolutely firm on that and say that you have been instructed personally by me.
Gilbert: I will Sir. I will do that and I will do it at once. Anything further? I will analyze the statements to take a point of departure for the conversations and will then proceed at once.