793.94/2075½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation39
Gilbert: Everything is going your way here.
Secretary: Have you been invited yet?
Gilbert: No sir, but the situation here has entirely changed since I had my conversation with you40 and the clarifying telegram which you sent me.41
Secretary: In what way?
Gilbert: As regards the two items we discussed the other day, I will dispose of the simpler one first. I explained your position regarding military information to Drummond. He understands it now and fully agrees with the wisdom of your withholding the source. In the other respect about Drummond’s views regarding a possible conflict in the Kellogg Pact and Council action there was a meeting this morning of the Committee of five. After that meeting Drummond told me that he was very glad to say he had been entirely wrong; that each of the five unanimously felt there was no conflict whatsoever; that there was no reason why the two actions could not go on simultaneously. It was a very satisfactory conversation. Yesterday, I expressed Drummond’s personal opinion to you—I felt it was my duty to send his opinion to you. The situation is developing very fast. Briand is to bring forward the Kellogg Pact in the Council. It will probably be supported by the other Council members but that is not arranged yet. Then the United States will be mentioned not as a signatory but particularly in the sense of a proponent of the Pact, [Page 179] as an initiator. That fits in with this particular situation and makes a peculiar reason for our having a particular interest in it. When that is done, there will be a suggestion by Briand or possibly Lord Reading that the United States in view of its peculiar interest will be asked to join in the discussion.
Secretary: That means you will be invited to come in.
Gilbert: I cannot say positively.
Secretary: In case you are invited to come in I want you to understand this. I want you to be very careful so as to avoid the danger which Drummond feared. In invoking the Pact of Paris, in case it is invoked, I have always had in mind that it should be done as a warning only, or as a caution against a future act of war which has been anticipated or feared and not at all as implying a decision that such an act has already taken place. I agree with Mr. Drummond that it would be dangerous to invoke the Pact of Paris in such a way as to indicate that war has already taken place. I want you to state that emphatically to the Council if it comes up. Do you understand?
Gilbert: I am quite certain that I do understand.
Secretary: You see if those people say that an act of war has already taken place it would open the whole question of sanctions, with which we have nothing to do.
Gilbert: They are avoiding, of course, making any sanctions.
Secretary: They may have this perfectly clear in mind but I want——
Gilbert: As a warning to the two disputants not to in the future commit an act of war and not as a protest or a decision that they have already done so.
Gilbert: Of course, when I am called, what I will do presumably, after answering Mr. Briand’s greeting, is make an opening statement. In view of the delicacy of the situation and possible misinterpretation of words I would appreciate it if such a statement could be telegraphed to me.
Secretary: If possible, but it is pretty difficult.
Gilbert: Very difficult. I could write it if you prefer.
Secretary: Your telegram which came today,42 giving your conception of your position there, is entirely correct and I am just confirming it. You are to sit there merely as an observer, if you are invited, on matters which do not relate to the Pact of Paris.
Gilbert: They have had great difficulty in working on that phase. They first thought they could have a separate Council meeting just for that situation. There are only two items on the agenda. When the Pact of Paris is not under discussion, Briand would protect me entirely. [Page 180] What they think will happen is this. They are looking more than anything else I understand to the psychological effect and they believe that if I make an opening statement that will probably be all that will be necessary. Then the other Ministers will make statements, leaving out the question of our invoking the Pact of Paris at Geneva, which is in line with your policy as I understand it. Could I have an opening statement?
Secretary: When will the Council meet? Tomorrow?
Gilbert: I believe it will not meet until Thursday.
Secretary: I was a little afraid that a statement sent you would be narrowing and cramp your attitude. I do not know exactly the situation there.
Gilbert: I would naturally phrase the words so as to follow what Briand would say. I know about what he is going to say now. This has been drawn up by one of his advisers.
Secretary: Read it.
Gilbert: “The representative of the Chinese Government indicated——” I must say in advance that the Chinese Government mentioned today the Kellogg Pact. That is what Briand bases his reference on.
[Here follows text quoted in telegram No. 194, October 13, 8 p.m., from the Consul at Geneva, printed on page 187.]
Secretary: Cable that on—as quickly as you can.
Gilbert: Mr. Briand is going to work with me tomorrow. This will ease the situation. He understands your feeling and is going to develop the whole situation along the lines of your policy. His adviser is fully in accord.
Secretary: What does Briand know about my policy?
Gilbert: We had to intimate that if we were asked that we would be willing to sit at the table. It would seem more desirable that no separate action of any kind be taken by the United States so as to assure the minds of the people that we are acting in the general line on this situation. Your statement to the League that you approved of its action so far made this clear. Briand said, “I see the position of the Secretary of State clearly.”
Gilbert: I am perfectly willing to form my statement in any way agreeable to you. I cannot say what Briand will do tomorrow.
Secretary: The next thing is this. The telegrams that have come in today apparently make a little change in the situation; there has been somewhat of a change in this respect in that the Japanese seem to be more conciliatory today and more inclined to the solution which the League is apparently anticipating according to your cables: namely, by direct negotiation between China and [Page 181] Japan. I do not want to convey anything that I have said in suggesting action in regard to the Pact of Paris to mean that I think we ought in all events and regardless of consequences to push ahead with an invocation of that pact. That is a matter for the judgment of the gentlemen who are meeting in Geneva and who are assuming the responsibility of invoking the Pact.
Gilbert: Am I permitted to express your views to Lord Reading also?
Secretary: It is very important that you should.
Gilbert: I have not seen Lord Reading yet but I believe he is coming to work with Briand.
Secretary: One thing which would be dangerous would be for me here in Washington, three thousand miles away, to try to insist upon my views or any views about the invocation of the Pact. The situation is changing from day to day. About the only instruction I can give to you is that it has seemed that it might become advisable to do it, but that ought to be a matter of discussion, and it ought to depend upon what the facts are at the time it finally comes up. All I wanted to have understood was that we stood ready to consider it, in such a discussion, as a matter which, in case it should be decided to invoke it, we would feel that we could join, and join in the way in which I have suggested—as a warning to the future and not as a decision as to the past.
Gilbert: The Council could not invoke the Pact.
Secretary: But its members could.
Gilbert: My opinion is that the matter would be left with a statement that if conditions are not improved shortly it would be necessary to invoke the Pact. In other words, these gentlemen at the Council table are also speaking for their governments and some have a dual capacity in the eyes of the world. They would take the initiative if it became necessary to invoke the Pact and whatever they decided upon at the Council table would be passed on by their governments.
Gilbert: When I talked to you yesterday, I was very much handicapped by the fact that I had only talked to Drummond and Drummond I feel was wrong and he admitted to me today that he had had an opinion which he now believes was erroneous. He said, “I am glad to admit it.” I was apparently condemning your views—but this was not really the case. I felt it was my duty to tell you Drummond’s views and often I repeated myself because I thought you had not heard me.
Secretary: That is all right now. The situation seems to have ameliorated a little so far as the Japanese are concerned.
[Page 182]Gilbert: When you called me I was at the Council and heard there that the situation was improving with respect to the Japanese. The Japanese delegate is so hard to hear that one must talk to someone near him to know what really did happen.
Secretary: The reason I spoke of it is that it may have a bearing as to whether the Pact of Paris may be invoked and it might make that unnecessary eventually.
Gilbert: Any statement made by anyone would be that they hoped the situation would not make it necessary.
Secretary: I was not speaking from a prejudgment that it should be done. I have no desire to force any such decision at all.
Gilbert: I have been very careful to explain that. Considering the complications of it, if I could have a statement by tomorrow night here in your own words and look it over it would give me a much greater feeling of confidence, as the phraseology is quite important.
Secretary: I will try to do that.
Gilbert: Do you wish me to cable the invitation for you to formulate the reply?
Secretary: No. You are authorized, as I told you yesterday, to accept the invitation and prepare the reply. Is there any likelihood, that you have heard, of the other treaty, the Nine Power Pact, coming up for discussion?
Gilbert: I have not heard the Nine Power Pact mentioned in Geneva except for the newspaper speculation which followed your statement to the League in which you mentioned it.
Secretary: If that should come up and it was desirable for you to talk about it I might extend your authority to that. If it has not been discussed, bringing it up might complicate matters.
Gilbert: The general feeling is that it should not be discussed in view of the fact that the Pact of Paris fits into the picture much better, because all members of the Council are signatories. In the case of the Nine Power Pact that is not so.
Secretary: In my announcement and my telegram to you I will confine your authority to the Pact of Paris.
Gilbert: That will be much better. Can I expect a statement to make to the Council?
Secretary: I will try to get the opening statement to you by tomorrow.
Gilbert: I appreciate the confidence you are showing in me in this, Sir.
Secretary: It is a very delicate situation, but you are acting with great circumspection. Goodbye.