59. Telephone Conversation Between President Johnson and Secretary of State Rusk 1

Operator: Hello.

O: Secretary Rusk, please.

O: Yes, who’s calling?

O: The President.

O: Thank you.

MF: Miss Fehmer.

O: Miss Fehmer, Secretary Rusk for the President.

MF: Thank you.

LBJ: Get me Secretary Rusk.

MF: He’s on the phone.

LBJ: Hello? Mr. Secretary?

DR: Hello?

[Page 119]

LBJ: How’d you get along?

DR: Alright with Fulbright, Hickenlooper, and Dirksen.2 I was not able to get a hold of Halleck, who is out of town, and Bill Bundy was up with the House Foreign Affairs Committee. And I will check with them. I haven’t been able to reach them this afternoon.

LBJ: Alright.

DR: But, uh, but the others were alright. They had no problem.

LBJ: Uh-huh, alright, now—

DR: Now, I’ve got a call in for George Ball. Mr. President, I think the problem here is that we need to get him back to be sure that we are all on the same track here and to see where we are going. That’s my concern about that. If he goes to Athens at this point, it could stimulate a good deal of excitement without putting one foot forward. I don’t think Ball is in a position yet to begin to move toward a solution to this thing. And, uh, we, our talks in London have not produced, ah enough agreement between us and the British about how we proceed here.3 I just think that since he now is not planning to stop off in London but he was planning to come right on back, that we’ve got to let him do it even though by the weekend we might want to send him out to the area.

LBJ: Alright. Now what’s the, if you can’t produce it while he is over there, how is he going to produce it here?

DR: Well, I think that …

LBJ: With the British?

DR: I think, the point is that we—that you and he and I and our people working on this should come to a final conclusion on what we ought to shoot for. And there is not a conclusion on that at the moment, and the conclusion that they have been talking about in London is something that will almost guarantee the Turks would intervene and this is what concerns me.

LBJ: Uh-huh.

DR: We’re not giving the Turks enough of a break here in the kind of solution that they have been talking about—in London.

LBJ: Well, is it necessary for him to get back here to do that? Is he an integral part of our—?

DR: Oh, I think that it would be extremely helpful to me because he is our most experienced man on this problem.

LBJ: Uh-huh.

DR: And he could take a real leadership on it.

[Page 120]

LBJ: I think it’s a lot bigger problem to send him after he gets back over there than let him go while he’s there, don’t you?

DR: Uh-huh, well—

LBJ: It looks like it’s just a routine thing, if he’s there now. He’s been touring all over the continent.4 But ah—

DR: There’s another piece of information on this. The Greek Cypriot Prime Minister5 has just arrived in New York to ask for a Security Council meeting on this subject, so that is likely to take the play away from other matters here for a brief time.

LBJ: Uh-huh. Well, is that good?

DR: Ah, I think so, sir. I—

LBJ: Looks like we need some time to get some solutions, don’t we?

DR: I think we do need some time here. This is one of the most—

LBJ: I’ll defer to your judgment. If I were Secretary of State, I’d send him to Greece and say, “Now, Mr. Prime Minister, here is what happened. We were notified that they were going in and invade that night. We prevailed on them not to do it. We don’t think that things are going as they ought to there and we are very concerned about what’s going to happen so we—our people are concerned. And we appeal to you to exercise whatever influence you’ve got with Makarios to try to let the United Nations work this thing out for you instead of shooting at them and arresting them and capturing them and running off with them. And we just think that if you don’t take some leadership here and move in, as we had to move in with Turkey, that this is going to be a very bloody bath.” And now I don’t know what other specific proposals other than urging him to do that, but it seems to me, then that would give us something to say to the Turks that we’ve made an appeal to them and personally sent our man. Now if you think that he ought to come back before he does that, why—

DR: I think that if you said that to the Greek Ambassador when he brings you that message,6 that would be, that would have the greatest weight and influence in Athens. But let me talk to George Ball and get his judgment on this point.

LBJ: Alright. Ok. That’s good. And I don’t think, though, that Inonu is going to think that’s much—for me to talk to this little ambassador here.

DR: Uh-huh.

LBJ: I think that if he thinks that this man has crossed the waters and gone to Athens and put the heat on them just like we put the heat on the [Page 121] Turks, that he’ll think we are sincere and genuine and we’re really working at it and not going to sleep on it.

DR: Yes. Now there is a press report out of Ankara that Inonu is replying and conditionally accepting your invitation.

LBJ: Uh-huh.

DR: I don’t know what that kind of press leak means, but if he were to come here in the next few days, I think that would be an important step.

LBJ: Well, I look at it the other way. I think that the last thing we want him to do is let me be the peacemaker and later wind up on my lap. I think we ought to carry it right to Ankara and Athens. Now that’s my country-boy approach to it.

DR: Alright.

LBJ: And I think that we got in trouble the other night when we suggested to him that if he—I couldn’t come over there, but I’d be glad to see him but we were absolutely desperate and I let that go.7

DR: Right.

LBJ: But when I got home and thought about it a little bit, I thought, “Now what in the hell is Lyndon Johnson doing inviting this big mess right in his lap?” Bad enough for George Ball to go to them and see him without the President calling him over here. Because I have no solution. I can’t propose anything. He’ll come over here looking for heaven and he’ll find hell.

DR: Well, his message—if it’s a conditional message—will probably have that kind of thing in it and would be the basis for deferring until we get some further feeling out of it.

LBJ: Well, my feeling is—and I don’t want to be arbitrary and I won’t be a bit disappointed if he comes on—but I think you ought to let him know—

DR: Yeah.

LBJ: —that I think that, in the light of this strong message I sent to the Turks—

DR: Right.

LBJ: —that I need to follow through with the Greeks, and the easiest and simplest and least-noticed way to do it is while he’s there to spend two hours doing it.

DR: Right.

LBJ: Then I wouldn’t hesitate the slightest to say to them, “Now, we’re going on and appeal to the Turks to hold this thing in abeyance,” and he can go tell the Turks what he’d done—

[Page 122]

DR: Uh-huh.

LBJ: —and although you wouldn’t have any final solution or division, you would have at least kept faith and made an effort and followed through on what I told them in this wire instead of saying we went off and went to sleep.

DR: Right. Well, let me talk to George and see.8

LBJ: Ok.

DR: Thank you.

LBJ: Bye.

  1. Source: Johnson Library, Recordings and Transcripts, Recording of a Telephone Conversation Between President Johnson and Secretary Rusk, June 9, 1964, 6:30 p.m., Tape 64.31, Side A, PNO 2 and 3. No classification marking. This transcript was prepared by the Office of the Historian specifically for this volume.
  2. According to Rusk’s Appointment Book, he met at 4:45 p.m. with the three Senators at the New Senate Office Building. (Ibid.) There was no indication of the topic of the meeting.
  3. See Document 58.
  4. See footnote 1, Document 56.
  5. Foreign Minister Kyprianou.
  6. See Document 62.
  7. See Document 54.
  8. No record of this conversation was found.