228. Memorandum of Telephone Conversation Between the Under Secretary of State (Ball) and President Kennedy0
President said he had been looking at Jones’ wire and the questions Bobby sent in.1Ball said they were working on the questions and would try to get out something tonight. President said we had to get something to them before Bobby leaves.
President said he could not understand the Dutch. Ball said one thing we have to do is not to put Bobby in the position where he is caught in the middle and the Dutch take the position that we are responsible for their troubles—that we have sold them out. He is expecting a draft from the FE people with their proposed answers: President asked if Ball had tried to talk to the Dutch himself to ask what they are prepared to do. Do they think they can fight it successfully. Ball said we were getting a new intelligence appreciation of the military situation. The Dutch have always said they would fight to the last drop. They have indicated they are prepared to sit down and agree to a deal to turn over the administration. In looking at the first question, if Indonesia agrees to sit down the Dutch answer would be they would be prepared to negotiate for arrangements and transfer. The difference is very slight.
President mentioned the exchanges in London.2Ball said they have not been useful. The point is, the Dutch position is they want to negotiate with a third party present and are willing to work with U Thant. The President said he thought the Dutch were on reasonable grounds in saying they can’t have a surrender but if the Indonesians withdrew that condition—Ball said the Dutch would have to save face. The Government is looking for a face saver and they will go along. If they don’t have one the Government will go down the line, even to the point of fighting. The answer is to get Indonesia to give a little bit to save face, and they can. The President asked if Bobby had this. Ball said a wire was going out tonight.
President asked if we could suggest an answer to #2—if they carry on their military activities without going ahead with the SG it would make our position different than if they had gone to the SG and didn’t get a response. Ball said he saw no objection to this. President said we could say US and world opinion. He did not see why this would be difficult for [Page 519] the SG. Ball said Sukarno is strong in his opinion. He has a lot of freedom of action, especially through the UN.
President asked if there would be any use to show this wire to Van Roijen and ask for his comments. Ball said he would like to ask the advice of FE and EUR. President said we don’t want to leave Bobby unprepared. We don’t want him to say more than we can do. Just say this may have a significant effect and it involves you. Jones’ wire is clear, plus Bobby’s questions. Just say we can give them assurances privately if they withdraw their conditions. What would the final deal look like. We should tell the Attorney General so that he can say we can’t answer these questions there. We ought to protect Bobby by saying our Ambassador regards the AG’s trip as the last chance. Jones’ wire plus Bobby’s questions could probably be put to him. President said he would be there all night if Ball wanted to call.
[Here follows discussion of unrelated subjects.]
- Source: Kennedy Library, Ball Papers, Telephone Conversations, Indonesia. No classification marking.↩
- Document 227.↩
- Secret talks between Dutch and Indonesian representatives.↩