103. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- China
PARTICIPANTS
- The Secretary
- Madame Chiang Kai-shek
- Chinese Ambassador Shu-Kai Chow
- Dr. Kung
- Secretary of Defense McNamara
- Senator Dirksen
- Senator Sparkman
- Ambassador Jerauld Wright
- Later—Mr. Cooper
The Secretary opened the conversation by stating that he knew there were many things on Madame Chiang’s mind and he hoped she would use this occasion to give him her views on any aspect of the world situation as she saw it.
Madame Chiang replied by stating that she would first prefer to hear the Secretary’s views.
The Secretary stated that he believed one of the things foremost in the minds of President and Madame Chiang was the Chinese Communist nuclear explosion and he would appreciate her views on this matter.
Madame Chiang stated that the CCNE had a decidedly powerful influence not only on adjacent Asian states but on the entire world. As a result of this development the Chinese Communists’ prestige and influence throughout the entire world had been vastly increased. She stated that this development was a matter of considerable concern to Asiatic nations including her own people in the Republic of China.
The Secretary said that France had a far greater nuclear capability than the ChiComs. France had in 7 years only three megatons, a very small arsenal compared to the enormous power of the U.S. The ChiComs could not approach French capabilities. The Secretary said we should [Page 208] assume that we are dealing with rational men not lunatics and that no rational men would employ nuclear weapons against the certainty of their own obliteration by the retaliatory power of the U.S. Any such action would be purely suicidal.
Madame Chiang replied that the Chinese Communists are not rational men. They are insane with power and will resort to any means to accomplish their objectives. She stated that ChiCom nuclear weapons had been developed at enormous expense to the people of China and created extreme hardship and in many cases starvation. She stated that their nuclear capability was a threat not only to the surrounding Asian nations but to the United States. She said that if two men faced each other, one armed with a weapon that shot 50 bullets and the other with a weapon that shot only 2 bullets, the man with the lesser weapon could destroy the other before he could use the greater weapon.
Secretary McNamara stated in substance, that the man with the 2-bullet weapon would never shoot if he realized it meant his own death. He said that deterrent power rested not only in superior weapons but on the willingness to use them if necessary in retaliation.
Madame Chiang stated that in the present situation of increasing ChiCom nuclear power the only course of action for the United States under the increasing ChiCom nuclear capability was for the United States to (provide the means) to take out the ChiComs nuclear installations now by the employment of conventional forces, to destroy now their nuclear capability before it reached dangerous proportions.
The Secretary then asked what action the ChiComs would take if such an operation were undertaken. Madame Chiang replied they would raise a terrific uproar.
The Secretary then stated that in his opinion the ChiCom reaction would be violent and would result essentially in the employment of their principal weapon, their enormous manpower, in offensive retaliatory operations beyond their borders. In this connection we could not employ U.S. manpower to resist such action and would have to resort to nuclear weapons. In such case the United States would be condemned by all the nations of the world, including those on the periphery of China, for starting a nuclear war. The Secretary stated that if the Nationalists were in Peking and such an attack were made in China they would certainly react with all their strength.
Madame Chiang stated that nuclear weapons would not have to be used; that the ChiComs could not go far in operations beyond their borders.
The Secretary then stated that the United States had only 190 million people whereas China had over 600 million and that he hoped Madame Chiang appreciated the impossibility of employment of U.S. manpower in Asia against such odds.
[Page 209]Madame Chiang replied that she hoped that it was thoroughly understood that the Republic of China did not propose the use of any American troops against the ChiComs.
Dr. Kung stated that in the development of nuclear weapons the Chinese Communists were “winning” in the eyes of the world; that by this accomplishment their prestige had been enhanced in the views of the Asian and African nations.
There followed a general conversation on ChiCom chances in the UN, and whether they actually desired entering.
The Secretary stated he believed their condition of entry would be the acquisition of Formosa.
The Secretary stated that the meeting had been fruitful in the frank exchange of views and expressed the hope that that discussion might be continued at a later time.
- Source: Department of State, Central Files, POL CHINAT-US. Secret; Exdis. Drafted by Ambassador Wright and approved in S on September 30. The conversation took place at a dinner given by Rusk for Madame Chiang. Ambassador Chow called on Chief of Protocol Lloyd Nelson Hand on September 9 to state that Madame Chiang’s visit, although private, was to be considered a return visit for President Johnson’s 1961 visit to Taipei. Hand stated that since the Department had been notified that her visit was private, it had made arrangements accordingly, but that the arrangements that were made for a White House tea on September 14 and the Rusk dinner were beyond those normally made for private visits. (Telegram 239 to Taipei, September 18; ibid., POL 7 CHINAT)↩